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Do you Reject the Holidays as an Atheist?

Love Tim Minchin's songs.

That leads me to a question. Why are all of the good rational/skeptical/atheistic comics from England?

In the US, we have Kathy Griffin and had George Carlin. Kathy is not quite the same grade - she's more about celebrity stalking. While Bill Maher does comedy, I'm not so sure he always goes about his little tirades in the correct light manner. Those darned English have Izzard, Minchin, Gevais, Monty Python, Rowan Atkinson (Black Adder/Mr. Bean), Mitchell and Webb, Jim Carr (who doesn't always work for me comedically).

Might it be that the church (CoE) is an extension of the government and not taken seriously any longer or in the same degree that churches are venerated here?
 
The simple facts are: a) kids want to do what's fun. b) -- and this is what parents often fail to see -- kids' enjoyment of something is not predicated on how many times you have done it before. You may have done it dozens of times, you may react to the thought of it with "Already? Oh no not again", but if the kids think it's fun that is what they want to do. They are looking forward to it, and will be disappointed and frustrated if you try and persuade them that something else will be better.

(Still mentally grousing over the time my mother tried to persuade me and my brother -- ages thirteen and ten -- that attending an outdoor performance of The Taming of the Shrew would be lots, lots more fun a way to spend Independence Day than going to see some dumb boring old fireworks!)

I think that we agree there.
 
That leads me to a question. Why are all of the good rational/skeptical/atheistic comics from England?

Tim Minchin, though supposedly born in England according to Wikipedia (citation needed), was raised in Australia. But I'm also guessing the overall lack of religiosity compared to the US relative to population size yields more atheistic comics from the UK than the US. It's also tougher to make fun of religion in more religious countries...
 
But I'm wondering about the implications of my desire to celebrate a holiday with my family that sort of goes against the traditions I am building for myself.

I can't speak to the traditions you're building, but I have no problems celebrating Christmas. Not being religious, I tend to ignore the "reason for the season" schtick and make it about festive decorations, giving presents, hoping for snow, eating a large bird, etc. If my daughter weren't in the picture, I'd probably forgo the decorations... Hmm... On second thought, maybe not. I get a kick out of having a tree in the house, a cheesy garland around the door, and a string or three of lights hanging around the place. I guess I do it as much for me as for her, to be honest.

In any event, celebrating with family is cool, and if somebody wants to bring a little religion into the festivities, I can live with that. Now, if somebody wanted to whop me upside the head with a leather-bound version of the King James while I was trying to enjoy my bird, I might take exception. Luckily, my family members don't much lean in that direction.
 
No. Christmas is a secular holiday despite the unfortunate name. Christians have merely hijacked what was originally a winter festival. Just remember that Christmas is not about christ, it's about Santa, Rudolph, Christmas trees, and shopping. All of the materialism that Christians point to as a debasement of the holiday, is actually what it's all about. I think Atheists should embrace that, run with it, and not let Christians steal our cultural traditions from us.

Maybe we could call it Yule, Saturnalia, Festivus, Solstice (okay, it's a few days after, but close enough for government work), instead of Christmas.
 
Maybe we could call it Yule, Saturnalia, Festivus, Solstice (okay, it's a few days after, but close enough for government work), instead of Christmas.
Oooh, oooh, oooh. I've got a crazy idea.

How about, The Holidays?
 
I go with Solstice Festivus - but without the pole. Well, unless the pole includes dancing on the pole (not around it like in other festivals). ;)
 
Since I believe in neither God nor spiritual beings nor an afterlife, I treat every day as a holiday, for I know that I am immortal for a limited only; I should treat every day as if it were my last, for someday it will be.
 
Being Swedish gives a semantic twist to this question.

The Swedish word for Christmas is "Jul" (yes, the same word as Yule with different spelling) i.e. the holiday is not semantically tied to christianity in any way. It has been celebrated with christian overtones since a few hundred years back, but was celebrated without any additional christ for long before that. Jul was obviously such an institution in Scandinavia that the word could not be exchanged for a more christian-sounding one. Not even the christians celebrated the midwinter as Christmas until it was decided sometime in the sixhundreds that it was to be celebrated on the 25th.

So the question is, do I refrain from celebrating the midwinter festival because of some feeble attempts to usurp its meaning and bastardize its message?

Hell no.

Do I avoid any christian connotations in my celebration? Again, hell no. The ones I was brought up with, in a very secular country, were obviously nice or they wouldn't have stuck.
I will adorn my window with the paper star lamp and put up an advent candle holder. I will light a candle for each Sunday from the first of advent because it is bloody cozy with lit candles, and I enjoy it the same way I enjoy a Christmas calendar - as a pleasant form of countdown. I will up my Bach and my Händel consumption to near fatal levels and I actually even kind of fast from first of advent up until Christmas eve. (It's a good idea if you plan to stuff yourself the way I plan to and it adds to the anticipation.)

The Yule I celebrate has borrowed from several traditions. On the 13th, I will celebrate the saint Lucia. A catholic tradition still practiced in a secularized country of the protestant denomination. Protestant christians in Sweden celebrate this day as well despite saints being a catholic thing. The reason we do is that the pre reform-church couldn't discourage the trick or treating slash caroling that was traditionally done on this day, so they slapped a saint onto it to avoid having to enforce a ban. This tradition has survived two conversions and it will whatever you call the day, unless it is crushed by force. So what did the scandinavians do? They kept celebrating the day, incorporating the story of st Lucia into it, because everyone likes a bit of gore. (While Lucia's maidens (tärnor) wear nothing, or tinsel, around their waists and nothing, or tinsel or wreaths on their heads, Lucia wears a candle wreath - because the story goes she was burned - and a red satin or velvet ribbon around her waist - because she was cut in her stomach with a sword.)
Melding the story with the tradition, Lucia was suddenly named lightbringer and harbinger of days becoming longer and so the songs associated with celebrating her have taken this on - effectively making the catholic saint Lucia into a sun-goddess in her own right, cutting her loose from christianity and in effect forming her own cult, at large once a year.

The tradition did not die from the usurpation, it changed slightly and kept going. Kind of anthropological Darwinism. If a tradition is loved enough, and it serves a purpose, then it will survive. Slightly altered, but in essence the same.

No amount of crucified minor rebel leaders can change that.

Does anyone think that christians in 625ad said: "No thank you, I will not celebrate this 'Christ Mass' that you propose, it is clearly only a poorly disguised Saturnalia. And I will not partake in the Fabae Domine bread with hidden bean lottery, as we can all see that it is only a play on the word phoebe and you are all furtively trying to appease a sun god that we no longer believe in!"?

Celebrate your Yule any way you like. That's what I do.
 
Love Tim Minchin's songs.

That leads me to a question. Why are all of the good rational/skeptical/atheistic comics from England?

In the US, we have Kathy Griffin and had George Carlin. Kathy is not quite the same grade - she's more about celebrity stalking. While Bill Maher does comedy, I'm not so sure he always goes about his little tirades in the correct light manner. Those darned English have Izzard, Minchin, Gevais, Monty Python, Rowan Atkinson (Black Adder/Mr. Bean), Mitchell and Webb, Jim Carr (who doesn't always work for me comedically).

Might it be that the church (CoE) is an extension of the government and not taken seriously any longer or in the same degree that churches are venerated here?

Maybe it's because Tim Minchin is Australian?
 
Love Tim Minchin's songs.

That leads me to a question. Why are all of the good rational/skeptical/atheistic comics from England?

In the US, we have Kathy Griffin and had George Carlin. Kathy is not quite the same grade - she's more about celebrity stalking. While Bill Maher does comedy, I'm not so sure he always goes about his little tirades in the correct light manner. Those darned English have Izzard, Minchin, Gevais, Monty Python, Rowan Atkinson (Black Adder/Mr. Bean), Mitchell and Webb, Jim Carr (who doesn't always work for me comedically).

Might it be that the church (CoE) is an extension of the government and not taken seriously any longer or in the same degree that churches are venerated here?

I don't know who Kathy Griffin is but I do know George Carlin and bill Maher. The last two declared themselves atheists. As for the Brit comedians they don't necessarily identify themselves as 'atheist' comedians. They will probably admit to it in interview but their comedy isn't necessarily 'atheist' in content. I think its more to do with the atmosphere they work in. The UK is not significantly religious and therefore they can all take the piss mercilessly, even managing a dig at Islam on occasion.

Whereas, if they performed in Alabama, they would have to fashion their acts to a different mood, if only to stop Bubba and the good ole boys from startin' a lynchin'.
 
Ah. I know who she is now; I didn't recognise the name.

"Why are people laughing?" says the Fox Noise presenter. Only a Fox noise presenter would ask that. I must admit I get a little pissed off when I hear performers thanking God for their awards. (It always sounds like a newly found idea to them).

I completely disagree with those pricks that try to tell you such people do it to get cheap laughs. There is nothing cheap about being an atheist in public. Such liberty to do so has come at a lot of human expense. The religious are just going to have to suck it up.
 
Too holy. As the dyslexics say, Keep the "urinal" in Saturnalia!

I agree. 'Holiday' is a permutated form of 'holy day' just like 'good bye' is a permutated form of 'god be with you'. Still voting Solstice or Festivus here. Leaning towards Festivus only because of its Seinfeld support.
 
I agree. 'Holiday' is a permutated form of 'holy day' just like 'good bye' is a permutated form of 'god be with you'. Still voting Solstice or Festivus here. Leaning towards Festivus only because of its Seinfeld support.
I think you might have to get rid of a lot of words by that logic.

Words evolve. "Happy Hollidays" pisses of Christians so for that reason alone it's the best possible choice, IMO.
 
And on that note, Happy Thanksgiving. :)

Where I work, we all received a copy of a Thanksgiving speech George Washington supposedly gave, in which he thanked God about a gazillion times for this, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah... (I don't have it anymore)... anyway,. each and every time the word God, He, Him, His, or any kind of pronoun or possessive which could possibly be taken to refer to a divine being in any way appeared in print, it was highlighted in red. (Yes, I know; they make all the Alzheimer's residents sing "Jesus Loves Me" too, even though I don't think most of them remember who Jesus is. :eek:)
 
I like Christmas, but I seem to like it for different reasons every year. Pretty much the only constant for me is listening to Bach's Christmas Oratorio. Gorgeous, gorgeous music.

You have excellent taste in music :)! It is what I have been playing in my car the last couple of days during my 45 minute commute - the John Eliot Gardiner performance. It is always the first seasonal music I get out each year
 

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