Do you believe in Luck?

Does luck exist?

  • Yes, luck exists. Some people just seem to have better or worse luck than others.

    Votes: 20 15.2%
  • No, there's no such thing as luck.

    Votes: 102 77.3%
  • On planet X, everybody's lucky all the time.

    Votes: 10 7.6%

  • Total voters
    132
  • Poll closed .
Waah? :confused:
Why wouldn't it? Do you think it would be a fair test?
I think a fair test has to be something that whoever is experiencing the unexplainable circumstance must agree to. Whether or not I understand or think it would be a fair test is irrelevant. What matters is that he does.
I'm beginning to see a pattern emerging here from your last few responses...originally I thought your statistics might be a bit off, now I think maybe you're just being fooled.

That's a reasonable hypothesis for you. It's not for me and it's especially not for him.

We're both aware of the issue of unconscious bias, but all he can do is collect data to the best of his ability. I don't find being 'fooled' an adequate explanation because a) I have close knowledge of the people involved, have observed many of the games and judge his data collection to be accurate and b) the data from the on-line games does not suffer that issue and shows the same pattern. Thank you for bringing the matter to my attention one more time though.
 
How convenient. You know the truth and are able to do away with experiments.

The experiments have already been done—by physicists. They have shown that there is no "luck" particle or force that could physically affect purely chance outcomes of games in a particular way for a particular individual. If there were such a particle or force physicists would have already found it, because they have performed an exhaustive experimental search of the entire parameter space. This has ruled out every paranormal phenomenon. Thus it is a waste of time to research ESP, psychokinesis, etc, etc, etc, and luck.

If we want to be "open-minded," at least formally, we could say that there is a tiny probability that all those physics experiments were wrong; then, that tiny probability would be an upper bound on the probability of your luck hypothesis. But even still, the many biases that could be responsible for your significant observed effect would be more plausible by many orders of magnitude than a new phenomenon of persistent luck. Thus, even if your hypothesis were true, you cannot convincingly demonstrate it by frequentist statistics alone.

[W]e continue to collect data and determine whether the empirical data are as we expect according to the laws of physics and random chance.


The folly of your efforts was, perhaps, best explained by the great statistician Dennis Lindley, who wrote:

Because scientific measurements typically contain unknown and undetected biases, precision can increase without limit but accuracy cannot. Statisticians, with their emphasis on standard errors that ignore the bias, have confused the issue in some scientific experimentation because the error they quote is substantially less than the true error.


I would add that by ignoring the range of plausible biases in their data, they often come to the wrong conclusion when they find a significant p-value or a confidence interval that excludes the null value.

The "effect" you have found, about 2%, is within the range of likely biases in data collection or reference null values. But rather than concede their existence, you collect more data, which can achieve nothing more than an arbitrarily precise estimate of a biased result.

But I don't believe that people have a 'luck' attribute. I am merely willing to test that hypothesis, which only means I do not reject it a priori

Yes. You a believe that the existence of a phenomenon whose existence would contradict known physics is plausible, and you spend years using superficially scientific methods to test for it. That is precisely what parapsychology does. Congratulations, with such compatriots as Sheldrake and Radin, you're in fine company.
.
I have appreciated your contributions to the discussion in that regard. I have no problem with identifying and eliminating flaws as we identify them and are able to do so.


But what Lindley was getting at is that you can never eliminate all bias from an experiment, and if you interpret your statistical results as if you have, you will often attribute to your hypothesis what should be attributed to bias. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the only plausible interpretation of a statistically significant effect in a test of any paranormal hypothesis, including your "luck" hypothesis, is bias.


In fact, my dh says if he weren't collecting the data himself, he would assume it was such an error. :)


In fact, it is precisely because your husband is collecting the data that the biased data collection hypothesis is highly plausible. Your data is being collected by the subject of the study, who knows the research hypothesis, believes that it is true, and would like to be correct. And the data analyst is married to the subject. Not exactly a double-blind controlled clinical trial, is it?
 
Last edited:
Out of interest, how do his stats look if you compare the specific 'race' conditions for the exact hands? 48/52 is a somewhat crude guide and you've only counted 54 races.

Suited overcards have an extra edge with flush chances, connected overcards ditto with straights, and very small pairs have extra ways to lose vs overcards such as when you hold 22 and the board comes 77553 and you lose to your oppo's kicker.

eta: using the holdem race analyser here I see that :

KJs is 46.16 to 53.46 vs. TT

KJo is 42.98 to 57.82 vs. TT

KQs is 50.99 to 48.11 vs. 22

JTs is a whopping 53.28 to 45.32 vs. 22

(they don't total 100 because of rare ties, and it varies slightly if the pair contains a card the same suit as one or both overcards)

I suspect your 50-50 assumption is having a significant effect on the results for such a small sample. Apologies if it's been extended in later posts but it's a longish thread.

Wait, are you saying that she's not even using the exact hands in her analysis, but rather making some some simplifying assumptions about the hands? If so, then I think we're done here.
 
The "effect" you have found, about 2%, is within the range of likely biases in data collection or reference null values. But rather than concede their existence, you collect more data, which can achieve nothing more than an arbitrarily precise estimate of a biased result.

I'm more than happy to concede bias is possible. I am willing to make changes to reduce or eliminate such bias whenever I can. What I'm not willing to do is presume that it is the case. If I were willing to do that, I wouldn't need to run the experiment.

Congratulations, with such compatriots as Sheldrake and Radin, you're in fine company.
Why thank you. While I know you meant your faux congratulations as a personal insult, I choose to accept it as a compliment.
But what Lindley was getting at is that you can never eliminate all bias from an experiment, and if you interpret your statistical results as if you have, you will often attribute to your hypothesis what should be attributed to bias.
I have no problem with attempting to isolate and quantify any bias, but I have no idea how to accomplish that. Do you have suggestions?

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the only plausible interpretation of a statistically significant effect in a test of any paranormal hypothesis, including your "luck" hypothesis, is bias.
It's the only plausible interpretation you are willing to accept. That's fine. I and Sheldrake and Radin feel differently.

In fact, it is precisely because your husband is collecting the data that the biased data collection hypothesis is highly plausible. Your data is being collected by the subject of the study, who knows the research hypothesis, believes that it is true, and would like to be correct. And the data analyst is married to the subject. Not exactly a double-blind controlled clinical trial, is it?
It was never meant to be a double-blind controlled clinical trial. It has only ever been meant to be a personal quest on our part. The suggestions received here have been helpful in terms of ideas about what data to collect, etc. For that I am grateful. If you choose to consider our results as solely due to bias, that's fine. Have a nice day.
 
Wait, are you saying that she's not even using the exact hands in her analysis, but rather making some some simplifying assumptions about the hands? If so, then I think we're done here.

No, not anymore. That was our earliest attempt and that data is not included in the analysis results I recently posted, which is why I didn't respond to his post.
 
I'm more than happy to concede bias is possible. I am willing to make changes to reduce or eliminate such bias whenever I can. What I'm not willing to do is presume that it is the case. If I were willing to do that, I wouldn't need to run the experiment.

Why thank you. While I know you meant your faux congratulations as a personal insult, I choose to accept it as a compliment.
I have no problem with attempting to isolate and quantify any bias, but I have no idea how to accomplish that. Do you have suggestions?

It's the only plausible interpretation you are willing to accept. That's fine. I and Sheldrake and Radin feel differently.

It was never meant to be a double-blind controlled clinical trial. It has only ever been meant to be a personal quest on our part. The suggestions received here have been helpful in terms of ideas about what data to collect, etc. For that I am grateful. If you choose to consider our results as solely due to bias, that's fine. Have a nice day.

Maybe it's not that your husband is lucky but that all those who lose to him are unlucky.
 
And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the only plausible interpretation of a statistically significant effect in a test of any paranormal hypothesis, including your "luck" hypothesis, is bias.

It's the only plausible interpretation you are willing to accept. That's fine. I and Sheldrake and Radin feel differently.

Well, trying to talk someone out of woo is like trying to talk someone out of religion: futile.

I look forward to seeing your final estimate of the bias in your study.
 
Maybe it's not that your husband is lucky but that all those who lose to him are unlucky.
Interesting point; what would the odds be of each individual being that unlucky, and of all of them being that unlucky?

Ah, I see we've had Sheldrake and Radin, masters of data manipulation, recruited to the defence. That's a significant error...
 

Back
Top Bottom