Do we agree the towers were designed to withstand jetliner crash?

We don't actually need proof of that - it's the sort of thing that goes without saying: Yes, of course, we know and understand more in just about every discipline of science and engineering than we did 40 years ago.


But of course. You get dictate all rules of whose and what evidence is necessary. no consistent or objective standards can apply here. One need to only look at all your little poster pictures to see those here live in some weird fantasy world
 
What you have shown is that Skilling thought the fires would kill many people. Everything beyond that is conjecture.

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building

Now if you can sit there and claim he did not do an analysis on fire you are simply looney tunes


So let's see whose proof weighs the most. You assuming they did a study based on a quote that can be taken many ways or what I am saying backed by a quote from Leslie Robertson himself.

To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.

All things considered, you are wrong in your ASSUMPTION.

Another quote backing what I claim. This taken from the book City in the Sky: The Rise and Fall of the World Trade Center, page 138.
In fact, The Port Authority and it's engineers did not think very hard about how their structure would behave in a fire, especially in an intense, violent fire"
 
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Here, I'll do his work for him.

http://911caper.com/2011/10/17/wtc-...lanes-without-collapse-or-substantial-damage/

Please show me where this paper states that did anything more than calculations for the physical impact only.

Also, read point 7 of this paper. Why would John Skilling write "In a letter to John Skilling", if he actually wrote the paper?

Thanks for providing this link!

The source, as can be seen at the bottom of those 3 pages, is NIST NCSTAR 1-2 ("Baseline Structural Performance and Aircraft Impact Damage Analysis of the World Trade Center Towers"), and the three-page paper is reproduced in its Appendix A, on pages 302ff. It is discussed in Chapter 1.3 "Aircraft Impact Damage Analysis", page 4ff. There, NIST introduces this as "A three-page white paper ..., February 1964, from the PANYNJ (see Appendix A)".

So indeed this white paper is not from Skilling, and also not from Skilling's firm, but from the PANYNJ. Reading the whole three pages, it is clearly a marketing piece to "sell" the towers to Whom It May Concern.

NIST, by the way, acknowledges and references the 1993 Skilling quote (actually James Glanz's book, which in turn contains it) and also the 2001 Robertson comment, but then goes on to list all the reasons why a detailed analysis, including distribution of fuels and spread of fire, was very difficult to do even with the tools available after 2001 (although some of the difficulties pertained to the unknowns of the specific plabe crashes that occurred on 9/11; designers might have been free to postulate any situation they found representative).
 
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One need to only look at all your little poster pictures to see those here live in some weird fantasy world

Here's one to denote 6 years of futility:

:hit:

Non Believer said:
I saw copy of the white paper but it is at a truther site, so I assume it is part of our giant conspiracy of made up documents but I will post a link in the hopes there is a rare open mind here
 
We don't actually need proof of that - it's the sort of thing that goes without saying: Yes, of course, we know and understand more in just about every discipline of science and engineering than we did 40 years ago.


But of course. You get dictate all rules of whose and what evidence is necessary. no consistent or objective standards can apply here. One need to only look at all your little poster pictures to see those here live in some weird fantasy world

You don't come across as very honest when you leave out most of the quotes that you are replying to.

I asked you several questions. Easy questions. A couple have been answered by now by Gamolon. Why were you not able to answer if you have actually seen the white paper, where a link can be found, and if it was written by Skilling? Why, Non Believer?


Why can't you address what I called "more important", namely the tools to apply to the scientific understanding, that were available in 1964, and instead reply to what I think is less important? Is that some tactic of obfuscation, Non Believer?



So again:

A. Can you not see how Skilling, in 1993, did NOT say that the effects of fires on the steel assembly were considered, and really ONLY says he considers the loss of life immediately caused by fires - and how everything beyond that is conjecture?

B. How would YOU calculate the effect of plane crash + ensuing horrendous fires and the structural response of the buildings? What tools to do this task were available in 1964? Was it at all possible to do such a calculation back then? What were the limits?
 
B. How would YOU calculate the effect of plane crash + ensuing horrendous fires and the structural response of the buildings? What tools to do this task were available in 1964? Was it at all possible to do such a calculation back then? What were the limits?

Above is a great question.

It's been 11 years. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth currently have (supposedly) 1,741 registered professionals. We have Tony Szamboti, Richard Gage, and a myriad of other engineers crowing about the bogus official story and how impossible it is. You have Richard Gage sucking up around $80,000 or so yearly for what? Vacations around the globe? Why not take that money and come up with your own white paper, complete with calculations showing the impossibility of what is being claimed to have happened? Why not show explosives/thermite could cause exactly what we all see in pictures and videos? Complete with which members were detonated and by how much explosives/thermite?

Why hasn't just ONE of all these people in these 11 years come out with a structural model/analysis of their own for either WTC7 or the Twin Towers showing that impact damage coupled with fires could NEVER have caused the collapse of the building/s in question?
 
Again the question is simple and it is your side that ignores the most basic question and simple hides behind the word proof. The question is who is the author of the white paper and is it a likely logical inference that the paper refers to Skillings study. I have provided proof that Skilling stated that he did an anaylsis for fire and you ignore that as well. So get real with your no proof nonsense. Further the idea that understanding jetfuel fires has changed significantly in twenty years is not supported by any 'proof' that i have seen by your side, though in general I imagine we will here the same retort of you have to be an expert like all of you supposedly are to understand anything. If you are experts then explain your expertise or it is meaningless
The same proof used for 600 mph, a comprehension issue.

I have the white paper, so does NIST. The white paper is not done by Skilling, or Robertson. The white paper was published as a rebuttal to an attack that the WTC would not be strong.

Skilling did not say he did a fire analysis; they did an impact analysis, and did not do a fire anaylsis. He would have said we did a fire analysis.

Like the 600 mph pinned to Skilling, a fire analysis never done.
 
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"...Why can't you address what I called "more important", namely the tools to apply to the scientific understanding, that were available in 1964, and instead reply to what I think is less important? Is that some tactic of obfuscation, ...

B. How would YOU calculate the effect of plane crash + ensuing horrendous fires and the structural response of the buildings? What tools to do this task were available in 1964? Was it at all possible to do such a calculation back then? What were the limits?
"

By your standard of reckoning, the engineering complexity behind the Manhattan Project back in the 1940's would have made success too difficult.

And of course NASA going back to the 1950's had a serious need for precise engineering analysis of complex problems.

Because of a lack of modern computer technology, you attempt to spin the notion that engineering research and development for steel building construction was crippled or seriously handicapped back in the 1960's.

Your incredulity is not an argument.

MM
 
Your incredulity is not an argument.

MM

Could you explain to all of us how this advances any theory pertaining to 9/11?

Do you think this "study" means the building could not fail as described?

Is my assessment that it's a "red herring" true?

Let's do an honesty check here MM. :)
 
Because of a lack of modern computer technology, you attempt to spin the notion that engineering research and development for steel building construction was crippled or seriously handicapped back in the 1960's

Straight from the horse's (Leslie Robertson to be exact) mouth.

To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.
 
The same proof used for 600 mph, a comprehension issue.

I have the white paper, so does NIST. The white paper is not done by Skilling, or Robertson. The white paper was published as a rebuttal to an attack that the WTC would not be strong.

Skilling did not say he did a fire analysis; they did an impact analysis, and did not do a fire anaylsis. He would have said we did a fire analysis.

Like the 600 mph pinned to Skilling, a fire analysis never done.

If the NIST thought the white paper was 'in effect', nothing more than an advertising brochure, they would not have included it in their Final Report.

Your unfounded assertion, that no fire analysis was ever performed is absolutely ridiculous.

Public concern in NYC at that time contributed to the professional motivation behind the Boeing 707-impact analysis.

It was easily remembered by New Yorkers, that a large aircraft crash had occurred with the Empire State Building a few decades earlier.

A big part of that impact were the fires created by the aviation fuel.

Apparently you seem to believe only NIST engineers would appreciate such a major factor in an impact analysis.

MM
 
...
A big part of that impact were the fires created by the aviation fuel.

Apparently you seem to believe only NIST engineers would appreciate such a major factor in an impact analysis.

MM
You wrote a couple of posts earlier:
"Your incredulity is not an argument."

Do you have evidence that anyone calculated the effects of fires following a plane crash in that engineering study that the 1964 white paper mentions, or are you just incredulous that they wouldn't?
 
Your unfounded assertion, that no fire analysis was ever performed is absolutely ridiculous.

Unfounded??

I keep showing this quote from Leslie Robertson.

To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.
 
By your standard of reckoning, the engineering complexity behind the Manhattan Project back in the 1940's would have made success too difficult.

And of course NASA going back to the 1950's had a serious need for precise engineering analysis of complex problems.

Because of a lack of modern computer technology, you attempt to spin the notion that engineering research and development for steel building construction was crippled or seriously handicapped back in the 1960's.

Your incredulity is not an argument.

MM

None of this answers the question that you quoted:

B. How would YOU calculate the effect of plane crash + ensuing horrendous fires and the structural response of the buildings? What tools to do this task were available in 1964? Was it at all possible to do such a calculation back then? What were the limits?

Can you answer this question? Then please do. If not, please refrain from personalizing the debate.
 
By your standard of reckoning, the engineering complexity behind the Manhattan Project back in the 1940's would have made success too difficult.

And of course NASA going back to the 1950's had a serious need for precise engineering analysis of complex problems.

Because of a lack of modern computer technology, you attempt to spin the notion that engineering research and development for steel building construction was crippled or seriously handicapped back in the 1960's.

Your incredulity is not an argument.

Neither is your handwaving and ignorance. As a 25-year veteran of high-performance computing in the scientific and engineering fields (I'm an engineer) I can say that you really have no clue what you're talking about.

Design analysis in the 1950s and 1960s was mostly analytical, verified by empirical demonstration. Numerical analysis was used only to spot-check the analytical models. "Precise engineering analysis of complex problems" in engineering (especially aerospace engineering) was done entirely differently in the 1960s than it is today. A useful structural dynamics FEM kernel didn't exist until the 1980s, and computational structural dynamics didn't play a big part in engineering in the 1960s, qualitatively different methods were used.
 
If the NIST thought the white paper was 'in effect', nothing more than an advertising brochure, they would not have included it in their Final Report.

Your unfounded assertion, that no fire analysis was ever performed is absolutely ridiculous.

Public concern in NYC at that time contributed to the professional motivation behind the Boeing 707-impact analysis.

It was easily remembered by New Yorkers, that a large aircraft crash had occurred with the Empire State Building a few decades earlier.

A big part of that impact were the fires created by the aviation fuel.

Apparently you seem to believe only NIST engineers would appreciate such a major factor in an impact analysis.

MM

How would it have been possible to analyze both the impact damage to the structural system AND then how the resultant fires would affect the remaining intact (yet damaged) structure? You act as if the engineers KNEW exactly where the damage/impact would occur, exactly what structural elements would be totally removed vs. damaged, how much certain structural elements would be damaged, then apply a fire of varying temperature.

How could they do that? How many permutations of differing scenarios containing damaged structural elements, damaged fireproofing, impact location, varying fire temperatures, varying fire locations, failed sprinkler systems, etc. did they go through to ensure the buildings would remain standing?

You need to read this article.
http://www.structuremag.org/article.aspx?articleid=457

One of the most critical issues in the fire protection industry today is the topic of Restrained vs. Unrestrained assemblies. It is important because misunderstanding of this topic can lead to inadequate fire protection and premature failure of the protected structural steel framed building. Many are unaware that the fire test procedure used to design passive fire protection for structural steel recognizes two different forms of end support for beams tested in roof and floor assemblies. The ends of the beams can be tested in a fully restrained or fully unrestrained condition.
From a structural engineer’s point of view, the most common forms of steel framed construction are considered structurally restrained to some degree, and certainly at ambient temperatures, this is correct. The main question, however, is whether the same assembly is Thermally Restrained at elevated temperatures as defined by Underwriters Laboratories Inc (UL). In other words, will the structure remain restrained and be able to support the design loads as the steel temperature approaches 1100°F. When worded in this fashion, few architects or engineers are able to answer this question with an affirmative yes.
In a truly restrained assembly, the structure surrounding the floor beams (primary framing members and adjacent floor areas), will be able to resist the thrust placed upon them caused by the thermal expansion of the floor beams. Since the beams in a restrained assembly, have a rating less than the assembly rating itself, they will start to fail in a particular mode that still allows the structure to support the design load, as well as prevent the passage of heat to the unexposed surface of the floor or roof.
An assembly that is Structurally Restrained at ambient temperatures, but not Thermally Restrained under fire conditions, may not be able to support the design load of the structure for the required period of time, or may transfer too much heat to the unexposed surface of the assembly. To understand the difference between Restrained and Unrestrained assemblies, you must first understand a little about the role of spray applied fireproofing, how it works and how it is tested.

Obviously, structural steel is a non-combustible material; however, the high-sustained temperatures of a fire can severely damage unprotected steel. Structural steel will lose approximately 50% of its load carrying capacity as temperatures approach 1100°F. Fireproofing works by encasing the steel and insulating it, keeping the steel temperature below the point where design strength is compromised. In order to determine the amount of fireproofing required in to achieve this goal, UL tests fireproofing products in accordance with ASTM E119 (UL 263). The results of the test are published in the UL Directory, which specifies the thickness and density of the material, as well as how the assembly is to be constructed in order to achieve various levels of hourly rating.
It is important to note that the ASTM E119 test procedure was developed in 1918, and although construction types and building contents have changed over the years, with the exception of a few minor refinements, the basic ASTM E119 overall test criteria has not changed. ASTM E119 is a standardized test method, which provides a means by which the performance of one material can be compared with that of another, under very defined conditions.
Many designers are under the impression that if an assembly on a project site is sprayed in accordance with a UL tested two-hour assembly, that the structure will remain intact for two hours, sustaining little or no damage. This is not necessarily true. How well an actual structure performs relative to the design assembly greatly depends on how closely the fire mimics the ASTM test standard, the actual condition of restraint, and the amount of fireproofing actually applied to the steel. Unfortunately, the amount of fireproofing required to properly protect a building is the subject of some debate.

Just some of the article I linked to. Now add in the unknown structural damage caused by the impact. How do you figure out if the building survives both impact and resultant fire????

You're out of your mind!

:boggled:
 
If the NIST thought the white paper was 'in effect', nothing more than an advertising brochure, they would not have included it in their Final Report.
The white paper was not done by Skilling or Robertson. Why can't you do better than fail to know who authored the white paper. You have done zero research. The white paper was a rebuttal to criticism of the WTC. Why don't you have the facts?

Your unfounded assertion, that no fire analysis was ever performed is absolutely ridiculous.
Skilling was not talking about a fire analysis.

Public concern in NYC at that time contributed to the professional motivation behind the Boeing 707-impact analysis.
Who did the 600 mph analysis; why do you arrive unarmed with knowledge?

It was easily remembered by New Yorkers, that a large aircraft crash had occurred with the Empire State Building a few decades earlier.
- large?, a small bomber. The impact was 18 pounds of TNT in KE.

The impact design of the WTC, 184 pounds of TNT by a 707 at 180 mph. And the WTC would do better than the ESB for that design impact.

911, 1300 pounds of TNT flight 11, 2093 pounds of TNT flight 175; got physics?

A big part of that impact were the fires created by the aviation fuel.
So?

Apparently you seem to believe only NIST engineers would appreciate such a major factor in an impact analysis.
MM
? A white paper, not done by the engineers who built the WTC. And this is your support for CD. No Pulitzer.
 
Again the question is simple and it is your side that ignores the most basic question and simple hides behind the word proof. The question is who is the author of the white paper and is it a likely logical inference that the paper refers to Skillings study.
That's about two qualifiers away from "I think the paper probably was talking about Skillings' study". Odd that you claim it's logical and present no evidence.

I have provided proof that Skilling stated that he did an anaylsis for fire and you ignore that as well. So get real with your no proof nonsense. Further the idea that understanding jetfuel fires has changed significantly in twenty years is not supported by any 'proof' that i have seen by your side, though in general I imagine we will here the same retort of you have to be an expert like all of you supposedly are to understand anything. If you are experts then explain your expertise or it is meaningless
Said the person who just doubted something based on his own incredulity.

Thanks for the new sig, though.

Again do you agree with Sagan or not?

How many times can you guys dance around the questions at hand?
Irrelevant. I've asked you two questions in post 384, both of which you dodged. I also proved you objectively wrong three times in that post.

What you have shown is that Skilling thought the fires would kill many people. Everything beyond that is conjecture.

"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building

Now if you can sit there and claim he did not do an analysis on fire you are simply looney tunes

Except that Oystein very clearly did not claim that there was no analysis. And even if there was an analysis, there's no reason it would be for a plane that didn't exist yet deliberately hitting the building at flank speed, plus fire.

Nice job quote-mining the one part of his post you are willing to respond to, as opposed to the opening questions directly regarding claims you made. It's generally better to let a few posts build up between yours and the quoted one as a buffer, so it becomes slightly less likely anyone will notice the alterations.

Slightly.
 
We don't actually need proof of that - it's the sort of thing that goes without saying: Yes, of course, we know and understand more in just about every discipline of science and engineering than we did 40 years ago.


But of course. You get dictate all rules of whose and what evidence is necessary. no consistent or objective standards can apply here. One need to only look at all your little poster pictures to see those here live in some weird fantasy world

Argument by mockery, not actually refuting the claim. Please demonstrate that fire science hadn't advanced between the 60s and 2001.

I also asked you what you wanted the evidence for, what you're trying to find out. You did not respond.
 
No one is arguing that the twin towers weren't sufficiently well-engineered to absorb the impact of the aircraft due to the simple historical fact that they did, in fact, absorb the impact and remained standing, albeit with some non-trivial structural damage.

What is being argued is that any conclusions reached by engineers in the 60's would not have included much in the way of accurate predictions regarding the progress and effects on the structure of large fires in the buildings, because the tools to make accurate predictions were not sufficiently advanced at that time, even though it was an important topic and people were working on it. ...


By your standard of reckoning, the engineering complexity behind the Manhattan Project back in the 1940's would have made success too difficult.
Straw man.

And of course NASA going back to the 1950's had a serious need for precise engineering analysis of complex problems.
Yes, they did. And the advent of computers allowed them to solve those problems better and better.

Because of a lack of modern computer technology, you attempt to spin the notion that engineering research and development for steel building construction was crippled or seriously handicapped back in the 1960's
Straw man. The explicitly stated argument - not "spin" - is that fire science was simply much less advanced then that it would be even ten years ago.


Your incredulity is not an argument.

MM

Prior to 9/11, what structural-steel engineering advances occurred in those "30-40 years" that argues against the WTC Twin Towers being sufficiently well-engineered to absorb the impact of those aircraft?

Which disproves the structural integrity provided by engineered-protection against aircraft with Boeing 707 specs very similar the Boeing's that actually struck them?

MM

What were you saying about incredulity?
 

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