Do Skeptics ever convince the Believer?

All I know is I have been both.
I just don't have enough faith to be a skeptic at this time.
It doesn’t mean I'm not skeptical at times.
It also doesn’t mean I don't have faith.
There are extremes to both sides.

Everything I have seen no matter …tells me this is a spiritual world, don’t know what you see, both sides have some of the truth.
 
Yes, definitely!

I was a "woo" for 20 years. In fact, I was raised with it. My journey from believer to skeptic started when I found out that Sylvia Browne, for whom I was a minister for a brief time, was a fraud, which was when I stumbled upon the first major contradictions in her trance tapes. That was a little over two years ago. I went online to see if there was anything else out there to back me up, and that happened to be right around the same time RSL had started his web site. But at first I believed that con artists like her were rare, and I still believed in all the rest of it. I remember e-mailing Robert and telling him that I still believed in John Edward and James Van Praagh, asking if he did. And I could just hear the face-palm in his polite response back which basically said as far as he was concerned these guys couldn't have been more obvious phonies! Now, 2 years later, I get it. I agree. But I had to research it to figure it out.

Through Robert, I wound up here on the forum. At first I came just to see what the other ministers were saying about Browne - for the gossip, I guess you could say! But then I began lurking and looking for threads on various topics I believed in, just to see what the skeptics had to say.

One thing: I was determined NEVER to be gullible and uninformed enough to be duped that way again. I think that is the one thing that kept me going.

Around that time, I asked Robert to recommend a few good "skeptical" books, and among others he recommended Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World. It's funny because I have shared that book with others since, and they have found it dull or uninspiring, but for me that book had a major impact on my thinking. I was skeptical of skepticism for awhile, in the sense that I was open to these new ideas but I still tentatively believed in spirits and psychic dreams and angels, etc., so my conversion to skepticism did not happen overnight. I had to research everything for myself, and I had a lot of material to cover!

I was raised with a mother who believed in lots of New Age type woo. She still consults her pendulum to make decisions. The smartest person I knew as a child was my uncle, a mathematics major, and he was convinced his wife was a trance channel. The other smartest person I knew was my dad, and he was something of a skeptic, but I remember how often he'd try to introduce a note of skepticism about some "woo" topic being discussed and be shouted down or accused of being a cynic or "negative." Now that I'm a skeptic, I know how he feels!

I was always skeptical in some ways. I was skeptical of the claims of religion from a young age, and it was partly that skepticism and an obsession with wanting to find out the "truth" about human existence and our purpose here that led me to the New Age.

I found it frustrating for a long time to be on a spiritual path, to want to live a life dedicated to God and helping people, and not to be able to figure out who had the truth. It seemed most spiritual teachers contradicted each other, and in big, important ways. Someone had to be wrong. Isn't it illogical that so many people could all disagree?? But how could I tell who had it right? Eventually I picked two (Edgar Cayce, believe it or not, and another) who seemed to agree, who seemed to have good values and integrity, and decided that I would trust them. It never occurred to me that they all disagreed because they were all either self-deluded or making stuff up! Interestingly, I was skeptical at that time, but I was only skeptical of anything that was not supported by the teachings of Edgar Cayce.

So maybe I had the makings of a skeptic all along; I was just completely uninformed and unaware of the massive amount of material out there debunking the things I believed in. And I lacked the critical thinking tools that would help me sort it all out.

But I'd rather believe nothing than believe something that is untrue - I guess I've always felt that way.

So I went on a marathon of reading skeptical and scientific literature to see which of my beliefs held up to scrutiny. I went back through all the events of my life that I had considered paranormal and analyzed them to see if they just might have had a non-paranormal explanation.

So, it was very sadly that I discovered that not only did a few of my beliefs not hold up, but a majority of them didn't.

So in a lot of ways, I have this forum to thank. As hard as it is to see a lifetime of belief go by the wayside, at the same time it's liberating to be free of silly beliefs that had no basis in fact, and even more liberating to know how to think critically. It's also nice to have a place like this to come to a few times a day for moral support.

I have now read books on just about everything skeptical I could get my hands on: James Randi's books, several by Carl Sagan, most of Richard Dawkins, Craig Harris, other popular atheist writers, autism/vaccination issues, homeopathy and alternative medicine, books written by other famous magicians, all of Michael Shermer's books, quite a few introductory science books, Susan Blackmore, critical thinking books, and the list goes on and on. I'm making up for lost time, I guess! All of these skeptics have had a major impact on this former believer.

How many people would take things as far as I did and as enthusiastically in a search for truth that was at times so uncomfortable and discouraging? I don't know.

At any rate, that's the long version of my story! Some parts many of you already know, some may be new, but that's enough rambling for one day!
 
I wonder if there's any way for us to conduct a proper study to understand a bit about what does and doesn't work for different target groups.

eg: it's possible that approaches that convince younger people may not work with older people, or perhaps even more complex demographic breakdowns.
 
I have to wonder if some of the believers are here to be debunked. Most of them seem to be so in love with their "truth" that they can not see flaws. But every now and again, you see cracks forming. Perhaps they have found some small question within their their truth and they want that specific question answered (which often leads to other questions.) Or perhaps they feel they can quash their questions by repeating their beliefs with escalating recitation.

Back when I was a bartender, I could always tell when a person was going to leave with someone they had just met. As last call approached they would start talking about how much they adored/loved/were grateful for their current girl or boyfriend. Protest much and all that.
 
Yes, definitely!

[snip great post]

At any rate, that's the long version of my story! Some parts many of you already know, some may be new, but that's enough rambling for one day!

That was all new to me. Thanks for telling your story.

Did you ever have to face a "relentless Skeptical response" as described in the OP? If so, did it help convince you that you were wrong at all?
 
That was all new to me. Thanks for telling your story.

Did you ever have to face a "relentless Skeptical response" as described in the OP? If so, did it help convince you that you were wrong at all?

The OP wasn't about a "relentless Skeptical response" although that descriptor was used, but the rather typical hodge-podge of responses usually found here some skeptical and sometimes overwhelmed by posts of inane bullying.
 
That was all new to me. Thanks for telling your story.

Did you ever have to face a "relentless Skeptical response" as described in the OP? If so, did it help convince you that you were wrong at all?

No, I never did. I've found reading the threads here helpful and interesting, though, overall. I don't like mean-spiritedness, but humor is OK, and relentless seems appropriate enough when the person making a woo claim is relentless themselves in ignoring feedback and continuing to make the same claim over and over.

And thanks!
 
Having been a Christian for a decade and a believer in god for years after that, skepticism and simple internet message board conversations and arguments chipped away at me until I finally had to concede that the things I believed made no sense. It took years.

I now spend much of my free time trying to help others out of the darkness and into the light. :)

I don't expect to win people over in a single argument or thread. But I'll sow the seeds of doubt that get those wheels in their brain turning. I'll likely never see the result, but I'll play my part.
 
No, I never did. I've found reading the threads here helpful and interesting, though, overall. I don't like mean-spiritedness, but humor is OK, and relentless seems appropriate enough when the person making a woo claim is relentless themselves in ignoring feedback and continuing to make the same claim over and over.

And thanks!

Great story, ExMinisiter. Kudos to you!
 
This is a hell of a thread!

I also know that one of the more prominent posters on the forum, Randfan, originally joined as an ID proponent, and has had life changing experiences since...
 
My, I didnt expect all these responses--well, just stopping in to thank all who responded, I appreciate it! Very thoughtful and polite remarks--if every thread were filled with such cordial wisdom I might find myself here more often :D
 
My, I didnt expect all these responses--well, just stopping in to thank all who responded, I appreciate it! Very thoughtful and polite remarks--if every thread were filled with such cordial wisdom I might find myself here more often :D
Please do. It was a good question. And we're really not all that bad, most of the time. :)
 
JREF Forum posters DC (formerly Dictator Cheney) and thesyntaxera went through that process here and are now reformed truthers.

I will PM them, because it would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the "relentless Skeptical response".

I'd just like to give a shout out to Orphia for giving me the heads up, even if I didn't get the message until today. Good thread.

As someone who came here with a desire to read up on the facts that were being used to debunk the claims, and also as someone who did a poor job of explaining themselves from post one, I would have to say that my reaction to the "Relentless Skeptical Response" was a little mixed. In my mind I feel that if there is to be a debate on something both sides have to be presented, and in the case of 911 ct's I decided to play the devils advocate, and I literally stated this in my first post. With in a page or two I am an avowed conspiracy nut who for some reason keeps typing the word "inductive" (just to annoy you) in the eyes of the people posting in that thread.

So, initially I was a little put off I suppose.

To answer the OP's question. Yes they sure can. My personal experience with this occurred in the Zeitgeist thread with many thanks to GreNME. At that time I was moderating a forum for some dudes. It started reasonably enough. I had a interest in religious history and saw a lecture that they had made on google video. I should have totally had the alarm bells going off at the time because the whole thing was about the "Mushroom Jesus". It just so happens that I had bought heavily into the "drugs affecting religion" idea after having the absolute ◊◊◊◊ scared out of me on mushrooms with a very religious in nature series of hallucinations, the kind you read about in Carlos Casteneda books.

So I got my mind all F'ed up and then had to make sense of it. The idea that psychedelics had influenced the course of history seemed pretty neat at the time. I keep on moderating, and as time goes on the veneer starts to crack. Too many completely coo-coo ideas were being presented for me to keep track of, and as I tried to separate the chaff I started getting flack for being close minded or some such nonsense.

Speeding ahead, the Zeitgeist movie came out. After watching everyone over there fall over themselves with joy upon it's release I came over here again, and decided to see what of it could possibly stick, even if it was only in some far off universe.

A long long long story short...GreNME stepped up with the facts, and I was a changed person, and not only did he step up, he was calm, kind, and mostly polite(except when I wasn't).

Lessons learned: If you are going to try and change some ones mind do it much like he did. He did not attempt to change my mind, he merely presented the facts. Only I could choose to accept them or not.
 
This goes back to long before the JREF: I loved the Woo. Still do, having today drawn my tarot cards regarding if I should change careers. (I will take advice from anybody, whether I feel they are crazy or not. It was autumn in Montreal so she wore a light jacket over a sweater. Seemed obvious.) The interpretations came back as, "F***, yeah! It's so obvious that a phony-baloney freeware program figured it out. So get off your dead a** and get something done!" Every last card. Either that or I used my predilection to consider advice, regardless its source, plus a bias built into the program, to interpret whatever came up as supporting either my position or the tongue lashing I deserved.

On the one hand, I take advice from whatever the source. On the other hand, I grew up Catholic and am inclined to go with whatever has the Nihil Obstat, no matter how stupid. In the end, I wished the sisters goodbye, kissed off all of the job options except those few I might be qualified for, and kicked back to learn the results of Goober at mechanic school.
 
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Critical web sites on psychics get % of believers reversed

Adding a second to Robert Lancasters comment --- there are several critical web sites operated by the P&G Inquiry group including ones covering "psychic investigators" Noreen Renier and Laurie McQuary. The total "view' counts have just surpassed 300,000 since the original site went on line in early 2006, and McQuary's was added in late 2008. Current daily counts average about 170-240 but we see surprising swings at times all the way to over 1000 per day but rarely dropping below 100. About 0.2% respond with comments and of these currently more than 97% are favorable. Just under 2% are "angry" and upset, with about half of those citing some area of religious prosecution in our critical evaluation of paranormal beliefs. Most of the remaining half claim to be psychics themselves!

HOWEVER, of the 97%+ who are favorable, about 35-40% indicate the sites helped change their minds to be more skeptical of the claims of psychic detectives, with about half of these indicating they now have major doubts about the paranormal claims by psychic detectives and believe they were "lied" to by either the media and/or the psychic. The best part is that in the last year about 10% of those responding claim to be active in public law enforcement and virtually all of these indicate they will cease recommending psychics (if they did), or continue not recommending psychics. So progress is being made. And our "views" are dramatically up the last few months since updating the sites.
Noreen Renier: http://www.amindformurder.com/NoreenRenier.htm
Laurie McQuary: http://www.amindformurder.com/OregonPolicePsychic.htm
Additional Noreen Renier site: http://www.amindformurder.com/index.htm
 
To add to thesyntaxera's post in this thread, I have to be perfectly honest and point out that it wasn't just me that nudged TSE to try looking at some things he'd been convinced of. Point in fact, TSE was already quite the critical thinker already, and all I did was appeal to those aspects of his own thought processes. That sort of approach is what lent to my own movement into a more critical though based way of looking at the world, and I remain consistently sure that it tends to be the most efficient method of getting people up to their necks in woo to wade their way out of that muck.

What I've learned about confronting and addressing weird beliefs and conspiracy theories I learned from discovering Michael Shermer (link goes to his YouTube page). His friendly, non-aggressive, but sure-spoken and knows-his-stuff way of approaching things and people has always struck me as one of the most efficient ways of coming at even the most outlandish or radical of ideas. His Baloney Detection Kit was pretty much the basis on which I built the arguments or criticisms I made in the discussions TSE mentions above, and they were done with as little aggression as possible in order to keep the points I was trying to make from getting muddied-- people in general have a mechanism for shutting off cacophonies, and when the signal-to-noise ratio between a critical examination of a claim and aggressive tone toward a claim become indistinguishable from each other, the message gets canceled out by the ridicule in most cases.

Another point I try to keep in mind is that it's not always my side of the discussion who is the 'skeptical' side. After all, arguing in favor of evolution isn't a skeptical argument, it's a positive argument about something that's pretty much universally accepted by biological science. Similarly, historical things like the Holocaust aren't really facing much skepticism from the historical studies community, except for the denier contingent. The people who I would approach under those circumstances could rightly be considered the 'skeptics' by definition, and at best I'm merely skeptical of their skepticism. In the case of my discussion with TSE about the movements and origins of religious history, this was similarly the case. All I wound up doing was pass on more information from the larger scholarly community and TSE wound up doing the rest of the 'work' on his end.

More and more, I try not to assume stupidity as the main driving factor between what could be called 'woo' beliefs and the more conventional modes of thinking. Usually, the people who are willing to have a discussion on the topic are plenty smart enough on their own, and at best all that needs to happen is to appeal to their critical thinking. That's not always going to be the most effective with everyone, but I've found that appealing to someone's intellect will get more dividends down the line than will appealing to ridicule.
 
More and more, I try not to assume stupidity as the main driving factor between what could be called 'woo' beliefs and the more conventional modes of thinking. Usually, the people who are willing to have a discussion on the topic are plenty smart enough on their own, and at best all that needs to happen is to appeal to their critical thinking. That's not always going to be the most effective with everyone, but I've found that appealing to someone's intellect will get more dividends down the line than will appealing to ridicule.

Word.
 
Absolutely. I think it really comes down to the facts.

Criticism is not helpful. For example, when I was a fan of John Edward, saying to me, "How can you believe someone so obviously phony? He's a fake! All these guys are fakes!" would have fallen on deaf ears. I would have written this person off as closed-minded and probably just felt sorry for their lack of awareness of spiritual things. To my own detriment, sadly.

But to say to me, "I hate to tell you this but John Edward is a cold reader. Have you heard of cold reading? No? Well, let me tell you how it works... And have you noticed that he is never very accurate live on Larry King?"

Now that's the kind of thing that got me thinking.
 
The answer is yes: I was convinced of the Non-existence of Bigfoot by several members here who have shown me the light.
 
I once played a part in converting a white power idiot to reason, actually. It's rare, but it can happen.
 

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