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Do Seat-belt Laws Violate The Fourth Amendment?

Citizens not flying through windshields is a pretty darn good reason. I can't think of a better reason to restrict a freedom than making people live another day to enjoy all their other freedoms.

I disagree that "for your own good" is ever good a reason to restrict a competent adult's freedom. "To prevent harm to others" is an excellent reason.

We don't force adults to accept medical treatment; we don't make rock climbing illegal. We accept, as a society, that adults don't need to be protected from risky informed choices.

Seatbelt and helmet laws are anomalous here.
 
Seatbelt and helmet laws are anomalous here.
No they're not. You've been given vast amounts of evidence that they're not, and you refuse, adamantly, to even address that evidence because it's not coming in the specific format that you ignorantly feel is the necessary format.

These laws protect society from harm. If you're going to argue that they don't, then YOU need to start providing some evidence to support your claim, because those of us telling you that they do have already met our burden of proof.
 
I disagree that "for your own good" is ever good a reason to restrict a competent adult's freedom.
Maybe you're very, very young. What is the one criterion I would have to meet to have you admitted to a psychiatric facility for a period of more than 72 hours?

We don't force adults to accept medical treatment
Really? You do claim to live in the US. Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment
http://www.care2.com/causes/pregnant-woman-ordered-to-undergo-involuntary-medical-treatment.html

...we don't make rock climbing illegal.
Certain rock climbing routes in the Adirondacks are closed by the DEC during the breeding season and are illegal to climb
Source.

We accept, as a society, that adults don't need to be protected from risky informed choices.
I've pointed out to you several times how this is not the case. I ask, again, what is your source for this? Other than your "understanding" of the world.


Seatbelt and helmet laws are anomalous here.
No. Not in the least. Maybe in your own mind but that is a very limited arena.
 
What part of "Driving is a privilege and not a right, and if you want to drive, you follow the rules as outlined by your state laws" does anyone here arguing against Seat Belt laws do not understand?
 
I roll my eyes every time I see the phrase 'nanny state'. What a stupid phrase. Exclusively used by libertarian scaremongers to try and make us place government and regulation in the 'enemy' camp. We can see through it.
 
I roll my eyes every time I see the phrase 'nanny state'.

I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation designed to control our lives for our own good rather than the good of others, or the attitude that government should "take care of us" rather than facilitating our abilities to take care of ourselves.
Do you believe that there are no regulations or attitudes that actually fit this description, or is it that you agree with those regulations and attitudes and therefore oppose language calling it out?
 
I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation designed to control our lives for our own good rather than the good of others, or the attitude that government should "take care of us" rather than facilitating our abilities to take care of ourselves.
Do you believe that there are no regulations or attitudes that actually fit this description, or is it that you agree with those regulations and attitudes and therefore oppose language calling it out?
People who can't understand the constitutionality, let alone the sense, of seat belt laws need to be looked after. What more can I say? :covereyes
 
I roll my eyes every time I see the phrase 'nanny state'. What a stupid phrase. Exclusively used by libertarian scaremongers to try and make us place government and regulation in the 'enemy' camp. We can see through it.



Hey, I'm a liberal but have never used the term Nanny state (and I also think the term is rather stupid). Don't be painting with a broad brush here.
 
People who can't understand the constitutionality, let alone the sense, of seat belt laws need to be looked after. What more can I say? :covereyes

Believing that people who hold differing views than you need to be "looked after" is a fascist view, and deserves no place in the laws and policies of a free society.

But to clarify, I neither question the constitutionality of these laws nor their "sense". I just disagree that the primary justification usually put forward for seatbelt laws is a good basis for any law in a liberal society.
 
I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation designed to control our lives for our own good rather than the good of others, or the attitude that government should "take care of us" rather than facilitating our abilities to take care of ourselves.

so the safety and concern for EVERYONE makes a state a "nanny state" or makes laws "nanny laws" then I dont know what you want to do.

Plain and simple: PEOPLE are STUPID and PRONE TO DO STUPID THINGS that CAN DIRECTLY AFFECT THEM OR AFFECT OTHERS. We need these laws for the BENEFIT of society . Their moment of stupidity (and all it takes is ONE single moment), can affect thousands of people.


Well, If it means that there are less people siphoning off of tax payers money or affecting my insurance rates and plans, I'm all for laws that makes sure that those who don't know better are kept safe.


Why do you think products have so many warning labels these days? Because there was at least ONE PERSON who did EXACTLY what that warning label SAYS NOT TO DO!


And for the umpteenth time in this thread:

What part of Driving is a privilege and not a right do you all have a hard time of understanding?
 
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so the safety and concern for EVERYONE makes a state a "nanny state" or makes laws "nanny laws" then I dont know what you want to do.
Protecting adults from themselves is not a proper objective of government regulation.

Plain and simple: PEOPLE are STUPID and PRONE TO DO STUPID THINGS that CAN DIRECTLY AFFECT THEM
... which they should be permitted to do...
OR AFFECT OTHERS.
... which is an appropriate target of government regulation.

We need these laws for the BENEFIT of society . Their moment of stupidity (and all it takes is ONE single moment), can affect thousands of people.
My protest in town square, or controversial novel, can affect thousands of people. The question is whether it causes direct harm to others' persons or property. If not, then leave adults alone to do as they choose.
 
I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation (snip)
I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation as non-threatening and essentially benevolent. When trying to scare people in supporting their views, can't Libertarians and other anti-government types think of anything scarier than a nanny?

Do you believe that there are no regulations or attitudes that actually fit this description (snip)
There are plenty of regulations and attitudes that actually fit this description, but not nearly enough.
 
Protecting adults from themselves is not a proper objective of government regulation.

but protecting society from stupid actions of people are.

... which they should be permitted to do...

and one moment of stupidty by a person can affect thousands

... which is an appropriate target of government regulation.

and that's what these LAWS do. To make sure that the stupid actions of other people minimizes its effects on others.


My protest in town square, or controversial novel, can affect thousands of people.

Apples and oranges. Your protest isn't physically affecting or hurting someone else or others. Unless you pull out a gun at said protest and start shooting people...but oh wait, there are laws in place against that.

The question is whether it causes direct harm to others' persons or property. If not, then leave adults alone to do as they choose.



When are you going to address the fact that Driving is a privilege and not a right?
 
Believing that people who hold differing views than you need to be "looked after" is a fascist view (snip)
The fascist view is that the people exist to serve the state. A nanny is paid to be of service to the children in a household, so a "Nanny State" implies that the state exists to serve the people; the exist opposite of the fascist view.
 
I can't think of a better phrase to describe government regulation as non-threatening and essentially benevolent. When trying to scare people in supporting their views, can't Libertarians and other anti-government types think of anything scarier than a nanny?

There are plenty of regulations and attitudes that actually fit this description, but not nearly enough.

The purpose of the phrase is more indignant than scared; doesn't the government know the difference between adults and children?

You're welcome to continue to argue that infringement of our liberties for our own good is a GOOD thing; there will continue to be a lot of people (myself included) who will never support such a demeaning, anti-liberal, counterproductive basis for government interference.
 
The books are full of nonsensical intrusive laws .. The seat belt laws are among the few that are actually worthwhile ..

As far as " ... doesn't the government know the difference between adults and children? " ....
If most adults acted responsibly without coercion, the seat belt laws would not be necessary ..
 
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Believing that people who hold differing views than you need to be "looked after" is a fascist view, and deserves no place in the laws and policies of a free society.
Cry me a river. It's not that you hold a different opinion. It's that your opinion here is provably wrong but you refuse to budge. FWIW, deciding who and who doesn't deserve a place in free society is the fascist view.


But to clarify, I neither question the constitutionality of these laws nor their "sense". I just disagree that the primary justification usually put forward for seatbelt laws is a good basis for any law in a liberal society.
At least you're giving ground here but you're exposing your basic dissonance. How can you understand the sense behind the laws and not understand the purpose and reasoning behind them? That statement makes no sense.

To put yet another question before you: what is your definition of a liberal society? A society that does not believe in blade guards on circular saws? A society that doesn't beleive in anti-lock brakes? What exactly is this "liberal society"? Does a liberal society eschew safety testing for drugs? Do they outlaw luminous road markings?

I know a lot of liberals. In fact, I lean towards liberalism. You are speaking nonsense.
 
... there will continue to be a lot of people (myself included) who will never support such a demeaning, anti-liberal, counterproductive basis for government interference.
We know that. Every political poll indicates that about 20-30% of respondents take an extreme view of the topic at hand. Luckily, this is a democracy so the fringe gets neutralized..most times. I'm sure you're one of those who dreams of low voter turnout so that you, finally, will get your candidate elected. Fortunatetly, that's why recalls were invented.
 
Cry me a river. It's not that you hold a different opinion. It's that your opinion here is provably wrong but you refuse to budge.
... which confirms an implication I wasn't going to impute to you -- that you think I have questioned the constitutionality of seatbelt laws, and that I need looking after. The first is wrong; the second is shameful.

FWIW, deciding who and who doesn't deserve a place in free society is the fascist view.
Which isn't what I said. I said that fascist views like the one you espoused in your previous post have no place in the rules and policies of a free society. Unlike you, I have not made a statement about the value of certain individuals, or how much freedom they should get, on the basis of their beliefs whether right or wrong. I haven't recommend kicking anyone out.

But I have said -- repeatedly now -- that protecting someone from harming herself is an improper basis for a law. I didn't say an illegal or unconstitutional basis; these laws are contrary to basic principles of liberty, but well within the framework of most established government.
These are state laws, anyway -- you'd need a pretty strong basis to challenge them on federal Constitutional principles.


At least you're giving ground here

I haven't budged an inch. If you insist on arguing with me, argue with the positions I'm actually putting forward rather than your strawmen.
 

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