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On their own, peace protests have little effect.
The last demo in London that actually had any effect was the poll tax demo which turned into a full scale riot. It was the beginning of the end for Thatcher. I'm not sure 'peace riots' are an option.
Maybe the peace movement only works when there are also enough body bags coming home.
For the record, I expect to be on the demonstration in London tomorrow.
The last demo in London that actually had any effect was the poll tax demo which turned into a full scale riot. It was the beginning of the end for Thatcher. I'm not sure 'peace riots' are an option.
Maybe the peace movement only works when there are also enough body bags coming home.
For the record, I expect to be on the demonstration in London tomorrow.
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Q-Source said:
What demonstration is it?
I used to belong to an anti-war group here in my University. But, I am just too busy too follow their activities
It's an anti-war demonstration, co-ordinated with anti-war demonstrations at over thirty other cities around the globe. Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people are expected to turn up.
Will it do any good?
I doubt it. Blair must already realise that 90% of the public think he is a liar, a poodle being strung behind a subnormally-intelligent chimpanzee, and already comitted to this war regardless of even what the UN security council says. So why listen to his own electorate?
UndercoverElephant said:
It pissess me off that no matter how many demostrations people do in London, Blair NEVER changes his mind.
I was in an antiwar protest last year, it was impressive but no repercusions at all.
It is amazing how Blair has been humiliated and insulted in front of millions of Britons (did you watch his TV appareance last week?), but he does not care. He prefers to kiss Bush's ass instead of listening to the UK population.
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UndercoverElephant said:
Does any politician listen to his electorate? lol. Come on.
JK
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Q-Source said:
I wouldn't be too hard on him, Q. Maybe he knows some things that the millions of Brits don't about Iraq.
BTW, do you live in Mexico or the UK?
JK
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Oh yes....
JEREMY PAXMAN: The question is what freedom he has under the current inspection regime but we've discussed that already, I want to explore a little further about your personal feelings about this war. Does the fact that George Bush and you are both Christians make it easier for you to view these conflicts in terms of good and evil?
TONY BLAIR: I don't think so, no, I think that whether you're a Christian or you're not a Christian you can try perceive what is good and and what is, is evil.
JEREMY PAXMAN [thinly veiled grin]: You don't pray together for example?
TONY BLAIR [embarrased smile on his face]: No, we don't pray together Jeremy, no.
JEREMY PAXMAN: Why do you smile?
TONY BLAIR [looking like his crabs are itching] : Because - why do you ask me the question?
JEREMY PAXMAN [now openly grinning]: Because I'm trying to find out how you feel about it.
TONY BLAIR ["yeah, right" written all over his face] : Possibly.
Bwahahahahahaha!
http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg00505.html
Oh yes....
JEREMY PAXMAN: The question is what freedom he has under the current inspection regime but we've discussed that already, I want to explore a little further about your personal feelings about this war. Does the fact that George Bush and you are both Christians make it easier for you to view these conflicts in terms of good and evil?
TONY BLAIR: I don't think so, no, I think that whether you're a Christian or you're not a Christian you can try perceive what is good and and what is, is evil.
JEREMY PAXMAN [thinly veiled grin]: You don't pray together for example?
TONY BLAIR [embarrased smile on his face]: No, we don't pray together Jeremy, no.
JEREMY PAXMAN: Why do you smile?
TONY BLAIR [looking like his crabs are itching] : Because - why do you ask me the question?
JEREMY PAXMAN [now openly grinning]: Because I'm trying to find out how you feel about it.
TONY BLAIR ["yeah, right" written all over his face] : Possibly.
Bwahahahahahaha!
http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg00505.html
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Jedi Knight said:
They do if they want to get re-elected.
Apart from in the US of course, where they rig their elections....
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UndercoverElephant said:
Blair knows this all too well, but persists down this extremely unpopular road.
What does that suggest about his true motivation? For a politician to effectively say "This is more important than popularity with the voters" should speak volumes about how serious this is.
Luciana
Skeptical Carioca
There will be an anti-war protest in Rio on Sunday.
Now pay attention... this is summer. Sunny weather for the whole weekend. Ipanema beach. Add 2+2 and you guess that Ipanema beach will be CROWDED!!! I can imagine how someone would look at an helicopter footage and say "Look at all those people! They're against the war!"
Down there, people are more worried about the supposed efficacy of the sunscreen, the temperature and cleanliness of the water, and if the coconut juice is cold enough. You know, those things in life that really matter.
Now pay attention... this is summer. Sunny weather for the whole weekend. Ipanema beach. Add 2+2 and you guess that Ipanema beach will be CROWDED!!! I can imagine how someone would look at an helicopter footage and say "Look at all those people! They're against the war!"
Down there, people are more worried about the supposed efficacy of the sunscreen, the temperature and cleanliness of the water, and if the coconut juice is cold enough. You know, those things in life that really matter.
rikzilla
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Luciana Nery said:There will be an anti-war protest in Rio on Sunday.
Now pay attention... this is summer. Sunny weather for the whole weekend. Ipanema beach. Add 2+2 and you guess that Ipanema beach will be CROWDED!!! I can imagine how someone would look at an helicopter footage and say "Look at all those people! They're against the war!"
Down there, people are more worried about the supposed efficacy of the sunscreen, the temperature and cleanliness of the water, and if the coconut juice is cold enough. You know, those things in life that really matter.
It must be nice to live in paradise! We're supposed to get freezing rain starting tonight....turning to sleet...then snow saturday....then a lull and an all-day snow event sunday that should drop over 10inches on top of the ice....brrrrrr.......
so I guess the peace rally in DC tomorrow will be far less fun to attend!
-z
I'm curiouser,rikzilla said:
I see references to communists. Can you give me any data on the degree that communists pose a threat to us here in the U.S., and in what way?
Are there government bulletins or something outlining how our government perceives them to be a threat?
Thanks in advance.
P.S. How does one "act skeptical" and why do you want him to act that way?
rikzilla
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subgenius said:
I'm curiouser,
I see references to communists. Can you give me any data on the degree that communists pose a threat to us here in the U.S., and in what way?
Are there government bulletins or something outlining how our government perceives them to be a threat?
Thanks in advance.
P.S. How does one "act skeptical" and why do you want him to act that way?
SG...
Go google WWP and ANSWER....while you're at it you can look at the latest threat assesments out of Pyongyang.
I told Geoff to "act skeptical" because I know for him it will require a conscious effort!!
I really like Geoff on so many different levels. He's one of the most interesting people I've met here. I hope that Geoff does not take my political stand to heart. My stance is consistent with how I see the issues....it's not about anything personal against him. The exchanges I've had with Geoff have all been in earnest....I believe he has never lied to me about anything and I know I have done the same.It's a relationship I value greatly.
-zilla
Googled WWP:
The Brown University Women Writers Project is a long-term research project devoted to early modern women's writing and electronic text encoding.
http://www.wwp.brown.edu/
World Wide Pictures is committed to producing and distributing high-quality evangelistic presentations.
http://billygraham.org/ourMinistries/worldWidePictures/Default.asp?bhcp=1
At World Wide Packets we know that true broadband will change the world;
http://www.wwp.com/index.jsp
Worms World Party Christmas 2002 Mission
http://wwp.team17.com/
Oh, here we go:
Workers World is more than a newspaper. It reflects the views of Workers World Party, which was formed in 1959.
We bring you news about many different kinds of struggles and issues, checked and documented for accuracy. We also bring you a viewpoint. All newspapers do, but the corporate press don't admit they do it.
What is our basic view? We're for socialism. We think that ownership of the tremendous productive wealth built up by hundreds of millions of workers can't remain in the hands of a privileged few.
http://www.workers.org/wwp.php
and:
It doesn't take much digging to prove that the much-hyped indictment of Iraq that U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell laid before the UN Security Council on Feb. 5 was a brazen rehash of discredited charges.
http://www.workers.org/
That wasn't very helpful in answering my question, rik.
Google ANSWER? I got their website.
http://www.internationalanswer.org/
So far no info answering my sincere question to you.
I don't like wild goose chases, although I would be willing to try roast goose sometime. Duck sounds good too, I'm hungry.
Have you ever had either?
As far as the N. Korea reference, I do read the papers, but what I was interested in was the degree that domestic communists pose a threat to this country. Like the ones that might infiltrate a demonstration. (Not to imply that being in a demonstration poses a threat to this country.)
Maybe I'll try the FBI's or CIA's websites (does CIA only do foreign stuff?) I'll let you know if I find anything.
If you come up with any info let me know.
Still curious.
The Brown University Women Writers Project is a long-term research project devoted to early modern women's writing and electronic text encoding.
http://www.wwp.brown.edu/
World Wide Pictures is committed to producing and distributing high-quality evangelistic presentations.
http://billygraham.org/ourMinistries/worldWidePictures/Default.asp?bhcp=1
At World Wide Packets we know that true broadband will change the world;
http://www.wwp.com/index.jsp
Worms World Party Christmas 2002 Mission
http://wwp.team17.com/
Oh, here we go:
Workers World is more than a newspaper. It reflects the views of Workers World Party, which was formed in 1959.
We bring you news about many different kinds of struggles and issues, checked and documented for accuracy. We also bring you a viewpoint. All newspapers do, but the corporate press don't admit they do it.
What is our basic view? We're for socialism. We think that ownership of the tremendous productive wealth built up by hundreds of millions of workers can't remain in the hands of a privileged few.
http://www.workers.org/wwp.php
and:
It doesn't take much digging to prove that the much-hyped indictment of Iraq that U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell laid before the UN Security Council on Feb. 5 was a brazen rehash of discredited charges.
http://www.workers.org/
That wasn't very helpful in answering my question, rik.
Google ANSWER? I got their website.
http://www.internationalanswer.org/
So far no info answering my sincere question to you.
I don't like wild goose chases, although I would be willing to try roast goose sometime. Duck sounds good too, I'm hungry.
Have you ever had either?As far as the N. Korea reference, I do read the papers, but what I was interested in was the degree that domestic communists pose a threat to this country. Like the ones that might infiltrate a demonstration. (Not to imply that being in a demonstration poses a threat to this country.)
Maybe I'll try the FBI's or CIA's websites (does CIA only do foreign stuff?) I'll let you know if I find anything.
If you come up with any info let me know.
Still curious.
Here you go:
"Anarchists and extremist socialist groups -- many of which, such as the Workers' World Party, Reclaim the Streets, and Carnival Against Capitalism -- have an international presence and, at times, also represent a potential threat in the United States. For example, anarchists, operating individually and in groups, caused much of the damage during the 1999 World Trade Organization ministerial meeting in Seattle."
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm
Seems they are more concerned about right wing terrorism and animal rights terrorists
"In recent years, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) -- an extremist animal rights movement -- has become one of the most active extremist elements in the United States. Despite the destructive aspects of ALF's operations, its operational philosophy discourages acts that harm "any animal, human and nonhuman." Animal rights groups in the United States, including ALF, have generally adhered to this mandate. A distinct but related group, the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), claimed responsibility for the arson fires set at a Vail, Colorado, ski resort in October 1998 that destroyed eight separate structures and caused $12 million dollars in damages. In a communique issued after the fires, ELF claimed that the fires were in retaliation for the resort's planned expansion that would destroy the last remaining habitat in Colorado for the lynx. Eight of the terrorist incidents occurring in the United States during 1999 have been attributed to either ALF or ELF. Several additional acts committed during 2000 and 2001 are currently being reviewed for possible designation as terrorist incidents."
and
"Right-wing extremist groups. Fight-wing terrorist groups often adhere to the principles of racial supremacy and embrace antigovernment, antiregulatory beliefs. Generally, extremist right-wing groups engage in activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action.
On the national level, formal right-wing hate groups, such as World Church of the Creator (WCOTC) and the Aryan Nations, represent a continuing terrorist threat. Although efforts have been made by some extremist groups to reduce openly racist rhetoric in order to appeal to a broader segment of the population and to focus increased attention on anti-government sentiment, racism-based hatred remains an integral component of these groups, core orientations.
Right-wing extremists continue to represent a serious terrorist threat. Two of the seven planned acts of terrorism prevented in 1999 were potentially large-scale, high-casualty attacks being planned by organized right-wing extremists. In December 1999, individuals associated with an anti-government group and who were planning to attack a large propane storage facility in Elk Grove, California, were arrested by the Sacramento Joint Terrorism Task Force. When arrested, these individuals were in possession of detonation cord, blasting caps, grenade hulls, weapons, and various chemicals, including ammonium nitrate. Also in 1999, the FBI interrupted plans by members of the Southeastern States Alliance -- an umbrella organization of militias in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, and other southern states - to steal weapons from national guard armories in Central Florida, attack power lines in several states, and ambush federal law enforcement officers. The goal of this group was to create social and political chaos, thereby forcing the U.S. Government to declare martial law, an act the group believed would lead to a violent overthrow of the Government by the American people."
Does this seem to comport with your understanding of the relative threats posed by groups of any stripe in this country?
Inquiring mind wants to know.
"Anarchists and extremist socialist groups -- many of which, such as the Workers' World Party, Reclaim the Streets, and Carnival Against Capitalism -- have an international presence and, at times, also represent a potential threat in the United States. For example, anarchists, operating individually and in groups, caused much of the damage during the 1999 World Trade Organization ministerial meeting in Seattle."
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm
Seems they are more concerned about right wing terrorism and animal rights terrorists
"In recent years, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) -- an extremist animal rights movement -- has become one of the most active extremist elements in the United States. Despite the destructive aspects of ALF's operations, its operational philosophy discourages acts that harm "any animal, human and nonhuman." Animal rights groups in the United States, including ALF, have generally adhered to this mandate. A distinct but related group, the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), claimed responsibility for the arson fires set at a Vail, Colorado, ski resort in October 1998 that destroyed eight separate structures and caused $12 million dollars in damages. In a communique issued after the fires, ELF claimed that the fires were in retaliation for the resort's planned expansion that would destroy the last remaining habitat in Colorado for the lynx. Eight of the terrorist incidents occurring in the United States during 1999 have been attributed to either ALF or ELF. Several additional acts committed during 2000 and 2001 are currently being reviewed for possible designation as terrorist incidents."
and
"Right-wing extremist groups. Fight-wing terrorist groups often adhere to the principles of racial supremacy and embrace antigovernment, antiregulatory beliefs. Generally, extremist right-wing groups engage in activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action.
On the national level, formal right-wing hate groups, such as World Church of the Creator (WCOTC) and the Aryan Nations, represent a continuing terrorist threat. Although efforts have been made by some extremist groups to reduce openly racist rhetoric in order to appeal to a broader segment of the population and to focus increased attention on anti-government sentiment, racism-based hatred remains an integral component of these groups, core orientations.
Right-wing extremists continue to represent a serious terrorist threat. Two of the seven planned acts of terrorism prevented in 1999 were potentially large-scale, high-casualty attacks being planned by organized right-wing extremists. In December 1999, individuals associated with an anti-government group and who were planning to attack a large propane storage facility in Elk Grove, California, were arrested by the Sacramento Joint Terrorism Task Force. When arrested, these individuals were in possession of detonation cord, blasting caps, grenade hulls, weapons, and various chemicals, including ammonium nitrate. Also in 1999, the FBI interrupted plans by members of the Southeastern States Alliance -- an umbrella organization of militias in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, and other southern states - to steal weapons from national guard armories in Central Florida, attack power lines in several states, and ambush federal law enforcement officers. The goal of this group was to create social and political chaos, thereby forcing the U.S. Government to declare martial law, an act the group believed would lead to a violent overthrow of the Government by the American people."
Does this seem to comport with your understanding of the relative threats posed by groups of any stripe in this country?
Inquiring mind wants to know.