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Do Healers Believe?

Cyphermage said:
Well, that's certainly a testable statement. Can you provide evidence of a case in which one of the serious non-Tilton-esque faith healers like Oral Roberts told someone with a diagnosed illness like diabetes or heart disease or a seizure disorder to prove their faith by stopping medication prescribed by a physician?

A short clip of Benny Hinn telling an epileptic that Dilantin is the "work of the devil" would do nicely. :)
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I provided one way in which faith healers are a problem. I did not say that was the only reason. I merely pointed out that this is a very DANGEROUS thing. Even if they do not out and out say throw away your medication, they encourage it by the way they preach and that is dangerous.


Again, I say read Randi's book, then come back and argue whatever points you have.
 
Cyphermage said:
Do skeptics, in general, view all faith healers as deliberate con artists.
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Not all of them; only the financially successful ones.

Is Oral Roberts a crook, or a man who sincerely wants to help people who are hurting? Is Benny Hinn a crook?
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Is he rich? Did he get rich off of something no one can demonstrate, let alone prove or scientifically verify?

There's your answer.
 
Anti_Hypeman said:
If Jerry took the wheelchair bound kids by the hands and made them step across the stage I would be against it.
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In the shape Jerry's currently in, it's more likely the kids helping the wheelchair bound Jerry.

But I digress.

I think we should return to our original irony here, which is that people who say consenting adults should be permitted to go drink deadly poison in Switzerland, believe it is terribly harmful for them to go to a boisterous revival and healing event, because they might sprain something jumping up and down and yelling "Jesus!"
 
Yahzi said:
Is he rich? Did he get rich off of something no one can demonstrate, let alone prove or scientifically verify?

There's your answer.
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Sounds like the cosmetics industry, the Feng Shui industry, the Roman Catholic Church, psychic crystals, and about 100,000 other products and organizations.
 
Cyphermage said:
But I digress.

I think we should return to our original irony here, which is that people who say consenting adults should be permitted to go drink deadly poison in Switzerland, believe it is terribly harmful for them to go to a boisterous revival and healing event, because they might sprain something jumping up and down and yelling "Jesus!"
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People who need crutches or walkers to walk and stand can frenquently do more than just sprain something jumping up and down and yelling "Jesus". You are ignoring the fact that people who attend these healing sessions are frenquently very, very ill or have serious disabilities. They are frequently the people whose bodies can not be mended.

If they get carried away with the moment and the endorphin rush they can need to be carried out by others and cause serious damage to already damaged bodies. DO NOT BELITTLE their situations.
 
Cyphermage you are seeking to justify something unjustifiable. You need to stop comparing what faith healers do to other things.

What they do is prey upon people who often have no hope. This is despicable. That they do this in the name of some god makes it even worse. They trade on the faith people have and the hopelessness they feel and use it to the greater glory and enrichment of themselves.
 
Cyphermage said:
Sounds like the cosmetics industry, the Feng Shui industry, the Roman Catholic Church, psychic crystals, and about 100,000 other products and organizations.
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All organizations that come into Skeptics' crosshairs on a regular basis, yes.

Be mindful that skeptics are not only concerned with the philosophical / ethical issues: we are active in pitching to legislative bodies, and often believe the laws are too lax or too excessive, depending on the issue.

For example, here in Canada, Dr. Beyerstein and Dr. Polevoy often speak at senate hearings with regard to healthfraud issues like the supplement/vitamin industry and testing services.

The principle concern is *demonstrably false claims*, whether the claimant is aware or not. This is skeptical starting territory.

After that, skeptics vary. Some want to know if the claimant is aware of the falsehood, and apply a judgement. Others go further, and argue for remedies ranging from educating the consumer to legal punishment of the claimant.
 
In a funny kind of way Cyphermage is pushing us to come up with stronger arguments than the ones we have.
You could see it this way:
* Those who bleev go to the healers.
* Those who bleev find no dishonesty in the situation. If they did, where are the movements of bleevrs against the healers?
* When sceptics point out that the healers are frauds and are hurting people, the acceptics do not listen (investment in their bleef) and the only ones left are not involved or are skeptics - and they are in the choir already.

So, how do we reach the bleevers? How do we articulate the objections in another way?

Maybe I'm just wrong. I have never been into or remotely touched by a healing ministry dooh-dah.
 
Do skeptics, in general, view all faith healers as deliberate con artists.
Or, like the UFO thing, are some of them honest people, normal in every other respect, relating things that could not possibly have happened, but not viewing themselves as engaging in any deception while doing so.

I see them con artists but some of them aren't aware they are. If that makes sense. Some truly believe they have a gift, I think. But most are aware they are cons.

If true believers exist, who aren't engaging in deliberate deception, what is the best way to debunk them? It is fair to portray them as crooks to put them out of business?

I have to say yes because I think we should be striving to be smarter as a species and not perpetuating superstitions.

Is Oral Roberts a crook, or a man who sincerely wants to help people who are hurting? Is Benny Hinn a crook?

Oral- hard to say, I think he is a true believer and is somewhat sincere. Benny is an outright fake and should be charged.
 
Cyphermage said:
Sounds like the cosmetics industry, the Feng Shui industry, the Roman Catholic Church, psychic crystals, and about 100,000 other products and organizations.
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"It's fine, because its just like these other horrible, predatory frauds"

I'm not sure if that flies with me.
 
Donn said:
In a funny kind of way Cyphermage is pushing us to come up with stronger arguments than the ones we have.
You could see it this way:
* Those who bleev go to the healers.
* Those who bleev find no dishonesty in the situation. If they did, where are the movements of bleevrs against the healers?
* When sceptics point out that the healers are frauds and are hurting people, the acceptics do not listen (investment in their bleef) and the only ones left are not involved or are skeptics - and they are in the choir already.

So, how do we reach the bleevers? How do we articulate the objections in another way?

Maybe I'm just wrong. I have never been into or remotely touched by a healing ministry dooh-dah.
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Movements often metamorphose from their original goals. A good example of this is sex abuse prevention, which now seems to be more about "hurting perverts" than "protecting victims."

Criticism of faith healing, which started out as "protecting the vulnerable" has kind of shifted focus to "sticking it to the charlatans."

Ranting against the Hutterites is a good example of this. Who exactly are the victims of the Hutterites? Again, it's "sticking it to superstition" divorced from helping the people that superstition hurts.

I think I'll worry about the death of privacy and the creeping universal mandatory biometric ID without which one can do nothing, before I worry about a pacifist sect that eschews having their picture taken.

If sick people want to go to a Benny Hinn show, and Benny says "keep seeing your doctor" and "don't toss your medications," I think that's enough truth in advertising to require from a religion, since after all, in our system, religion is separate from the state, and religions are widely known to be based on comfortable myths, rather than fact.

So while I understand why some would like to see Benny Hinn fried by a bolt of cosmic lightning while delivering his sermon, I just don't think that's the best use of our debunking reputation capital at the moment.

Cries that I am "belittling the victims" because I don't jump on the Hinn-lynching bandwagon parallel similar claims from other popular movements that have also experienced "Agenda Creep."
 
Cyphermage said:
Movements often metamorphose from their original goals. A good example of this is sex abuse prevention, which now seems to be more about "hurting perverts" than "protecting victims."
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hmm.
Lets say I buy a dozen big bags of M&Ms, and sort M&Ms after colour. And that I put the blue "pills" in bottles with penicillin on the lable, the yellowones in bottles with a painkiller lable on, the red in a bottle labled nitroglycerin, gree -> anti-deppresant etc. and sell these "pills" online to people who desperately need them........
Should I be allowed to continue?
(I didn't name any brand names)

Now imagine that I am a man of god who during my sermons give these pills to the people saying that I have prayed to the lord asking him to transform the M&Ms to real medicin, and that good appeared in a dream too say that he had. And that as long as YOU believe that the pills are real medicin, they are... But if YOU doubt the lords powers even for an instant the lord shall remove his hand from YOU and the pills will once more be mere candy.
....sends around the collection/donation plate....

What is the differance between the too examples?
Criticism of faith healing, which started out as "protecting the vulnerable" has kind of shifted focus to "sticking it to the charlatans."
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wow...Stop the M&M charlatan... help the vulnerable.
Ranting against the Hutterites is a good example of this. Who exactly are the victims of the Hutterites? Again, it's "sticking it to superstition" divorced from helping the people that superstition hurts.
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Stop the chalatans... etc.
I think I'll worry about the death of privacy and the creeping universal mandatory biometric ID without which one can do nothing, before I worry about a pacifist sect that eschews having their picture taken.
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Big brother seeeeeees you.
If sick people want to go to a Benny Hinn show, and Benny says "keep seeing your doctor" and "don't toss your medications," I think that's enough truth in advertising to require from a religion, since after all, in our system, religion is separate from the state, and religions are widely known to be based on comfortable myths, rather than fact.
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If all Hinn did was to say "keep seeing your doctor" and "don't toss you medication" I wouldn't have a problem with him....
But he claims to be able to heal people by the grace of god doesn't he?
So while I understand why some would like to see Benny Hinn fried by a bolt of cosmic lightning while delivering his sermon, I just don't think that's the best use of our debunking reputation capital at the moment.
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Who want's Hinn to be fried by "a bolt of cosmic lightning"? And where would such a "bolt of cosmic lightning" come from?
Cries that I am "belittling the victims" because I don't jump on the Hinn-lynching bandwagon parallel similar claims from other popular movements that have also experienced "Agenda Creep."
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Want some M&Ms?
 
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Curnir said:
hmm.
Lets say I buy a dozen big bags of M&Ms, and sort M&Ms after colour. And that I put the blue "pills" in bottles with penicillin on the lable, the yellowones in bottles with a painkiller lable on, the red in a bottle labled nitroglycerin, gree -> anti-deppresant etc. and sell these "pills" online to people who desperately need them........
Should I be allowed to continue?
(I didn't name any brand names)

Now imagine that I am a man of god who during my sermons give these pills to the people saying that I have prayed to the lord asking him to transform the M&Ms to real medicin, and that good appeared in a dream too say that he had. And that as long as YOU believe that the pills are real medicin, they are... But if YOU doubt the lords powers even for an instant the lord shall remove his hand from YOU and the pills will once more be mere candy.
....sends around the collection/donation plate....

What is the differance between the too examples?
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The difference is that the second is probably legal. If everyone knows they are M&M's, and that the other claims are religious belief, it's just another goofy religious sect.

We allow religions where people handle poisonous snakes, and drink strychnine, believing that God will prevent them from being harmed.

Surprise, adults in a free society have the right to make bad decisions.

If all Hinn did was to say "keep seeing your doctor" and "don't toss you medication" I wouldn't have a problem with him....

But he claims to be able to heal people by the grace of god doesn't he?
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Religious claims, like professional wrestling claims, sometimes consist of some stretching of the truth.

He doesn't claim everyone he touches gets healed. He just claims he will ask God to heal people, and based on the processing of large numbers of people in such a fashion, he believes he can identify some examples of such healing taking place.

Maybe he's right. Probably he's mistaken. Again, these are adults. The risk of harm times the length of exposure doesn't rise to the level where it justifies pre-empting their abililty to make their own choices.

For the occasional person where it does, there's legal guardianship, and the invisible fence.

Who want's Hinn to be fried by "a bolt of cosmic lightning"? And where would such a "bolt of cosmic lightning" come from?
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From my charged magic crystal, of course. :D
 
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