Do Healers Believe?

[Kochanski]

Yes, you do gain an awful lot from reading everything in context, not merely skimming through various sections. The book has a lot to say.

For my own view, when I think of faith healers I always have the image of "The Walrus and the Carpenter" in my mind. Only faith healers are far more heartless, than that pair.

 

[rustytunes]

Wikipedia is also an excellent source of information - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healer

 

[SezMe]

If you have a surge of adrenalin, and toss your crutches away, and act like you're healed, only to wake up the next morning in excrutiating worse pain, well, that's too bad.

And you're OK with that?

But that performance nonsense isn't the healing.

Tell that to those who swoon at just the right time.

Hinn doesn't claim that everyone he touches is healed, or that even everyone who thinks they're healed, has been healed.

What does he claim, specifically? And would you claim that all those thousands of people who come to his gigs would have a nuanced understanding of his claims?

If Hinn and his ilk spread crap all over the dance floor and then wants to declaim any responsibility when someone steps in it, it just won't fly.

I get the impression that deep down inside, Benny Hinn, like Oral Roberts, believes that very rarely, he touches a person, and that person is healed of something chronic that medical science had no answer for.

What is the basis of this "impression" of what is "deep down inside" these faith healers? Do you know any personally? Have you travelled with them and their entourage to get to know what they are like offstage? Have you discussed their philosophy with them in depth?

And the bit about medical science having no answer is a dodge. Medical science has no answers for lots of things. Doesn't mean a miracle is lurking in the wings.

That probably isn't the case, and he's probably mistaken, but how does this rise to the level of him being a "crook."

He is a crook because he fraudulently takes people's money for a service he cannot deliver. "Crook" is about the kindest word I can find for him.

I think I told this story here long ago, so excuse me if I am repeating myself. I attended a Hinn revival in a large, indoor sports arena that held probably 20,000 people. In the central area of the floor they had admitted hundreds (literally) of people with all manner of crippling diseases. There were wheelchairs and oxygen tanks everywhere. It was quite depressing. But that was mild compared to watching Hinn's minions working these people with prayer and the ubiquitous money pails. I had binoculars with me and watched scene after scene of people giving money and checks to the "officiants". This went on for a couple of hours while the show built up to Benny's eventual appearance.

So forget the theatrics on stage. It is the mind-bending hours of poaching on the utterly helpless that is the real crime. I will never, ever find an ounce of charity for people like Hinn. "Crook", as I said, is the nicest thing about him that can be said. I hope he rots in hell.

 

[Cyphermage]

What does he claim, specifically? And would you claim that all those thousands of people who come to his gigs would have a nuanced understanding of his claims?

I think he claims that his religious beliefs teach that it is possible for one person to heal another by the laying on of hands, and that if people who share that belief show up at his services, he will *TRY* to heal them.

It is unremarkable that sick people in wheelchairs with oxygen tanks who share his belief that this kind of healing is possible show up at his services.

Would we substitute our judgment for theirs? In another thread, it was argued that an assisted suicide clinic in Switzerland that has processed 450 people, some of them not particularly disabled, represented a choice by those people that we had no right to interfere in. Benny Hinn isn't giving his patrons poison to drink. If we have no right to prevent his audience members from going to Switzerland and drinking poison, what right do we have to tell them they can't let him touch them and wish real hard, which is far less harmful?

If Hinn and his ilk spread crap all over the dance floor and then wants to declaim any responsibility when someone steps in it, it just won't fly.

What responsibility is he disclaiming. (I believe "declaim" means to make a speech.) They want to go to a person who will touch them and wish them to be healthier. He is offering to touch them and wish. Sounds like a valid implied personal services contract to me.

I think I told this story here long ago, so excuse me if I am repeating myself. I attended a Hinn revival in a large, indoor sports arena that held probably 20,000 people. In the central area of the floor they had admitted hundreds (literally) of people with all manner of crippling diseases. There were wheelchairs and oxygen tanks everywhere. It was quite depressing.

So Hinn is evil because sick people are depressing? Or sick people are like small children who can't make their decisions, and we must take the role of their parents, and make their decisions for them? I'm trying to find an axis here that makes Hinn an bad person, and I'm failing.

But that was mild compared to watching Hinn's minions working these people with prayer and the ubiquitous money pails. I had binoculars with me and watched scene after scene of people giving money and checks to the "officiants". This went on for a couple of hours while the show built up to Benny's eventual appearance.

So forget the theatrics on stage. It is the mind-bending hours of poaching on the utterly helpless that is the real crime. I will never, ever find an ounce of charity for people like Hinn. "Crook", as I said, is the nicest thing about him that can be said. I hope he rots in hell.

Yet, were these sick people to go to Switzerland, and ask for a big glass of poison to drink, it would be their right. How is it not their right to give some of their money to Benny Hinn's ministry, when that is so much less harmful to them.

 

[Luke T.]

How is it not their right to give some of their money to Benny Hinn's ministry, when that is so much less harmful to them.

It emotional predation. And that's as disgusting as it gets.

There is also the risk that someone may forgo real medical procedures which could be of actual benefit to them, and die as a result.

 

[Luke T.]

The burden of proof is on their part

The burden of what is proof is on the skeptic. For too many people, anecdotes and self-promotion are proof.

 

[Mongrel]

Well callous as it may sound that "big glass of poison" is scientifically proven and I'd presume your also monitored throughout the procedure to ensure it's working as intended.

Extorting people and offering false hope is a far worse thing, I'd suggest reading Fowlsounds "Doing the least to save your life"

 

[Kochanski]

I know I keep saying this, but read Randi's book.

What faith healers do is evil for many reasons.

One very important one is that there are people out there with cronic illnesses, things like diabetes, high blood pressure and other things, illnesses that require them to monitor blood sugar and take medications daily, illnesses that could be fatal or cause them to be severely disabled if not controlled.

Faith healers encourage these people to believe they will be healed, to throw away their medications. Faith healers tell them that only if they truly believe they will be healed and if they take their medications, then they are showing a lack of faith.

Now, don't you see a potential serious problem with this? Do you want to be the physician who has to deal with someone in a diabetic coma or who has suffered a stroke because they stopped taking their medication? All on the word of a faith healer, who is not a doctor, who is not following up to see whether this person is doing alright without medication. And how does that physician, if they can manage to keep this person alive, deal with getting the person to take their medication as they should when the faith healer says that if the person is not healed it is because they did not believe? How does the physician convince this believer that the medication is necessary and that they should not rely on the faith healer without alienating this person who has a strong belief?

Now, you may think that just because the faith healers do not say that everyone will be healed that they are blameless. Wrong. The whole point of their endless show is to get people worked up enough to believe enough to give lots of money. They encourage everyone to believe they will be healed. It matters not to them whether the people in their audience are putting themselves at severe risk by believing. They just don't care as long as they get the money.

And in the end they have an out. Anyone who feels better, whose illness does get better, not because of the faith healer but because of the medical attention they have gotten has done its work, will likely just remember the remarkable spiritual experience they had when they were "healed" and believe all the more that the faith healer through the power of god has healed them. For those who are not healed, well they just didn't believe enough and the faith healer keeps his faithful flock and the poor ill individual believes that they are to blame, for not believing.

Do you not see what is terribly wrong here? Do you not see the danger? The irresponsibility?

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Faith healing bunkum

I think that movie "Leap of Faith" was a terrific expose of these quacks. Steve Martin bounces around a Kansas tent stage with an earpiece, being fed "psychic information" by Debra Winger and her canvassers, and cons poor people out of their money.

Most of these guys know they're con men, and that's what they are and what they do. Which is why Leroy Jenkins landed in clack for arson, and Jimmy Bakker and Swaggart got nailed.

I think Oral Roberts is very skilled at being a con man...I like how he went up in that tower and said he would die if he didn't get a certain amount of money by a certain date. And by Willy Dingo, he got that money!

You can't tell me that he chatted with one of his big givers, and said, "20 minutes before deadline, make sure you provide me with enough money to make up the difference between what I've taken and what I said I'd need." Knowing his fund-raising abilities, it probably wasn't that much.

Some of these guys probably believe they have powers. But I suspect that the vast majority of them know they're frauds.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

I have seen it live and in person the healers certainly know they are fake. You dont see the HOURS of money squeezing before the healings start. They slam it into your head that if you give enough you WILL be healed, not giving every penny you have shows a lack of faith. You cant out give Jesus he will give it all back with interest!

The ushers certainly know the scam they are just hired thugs that push the borken bodies out of sight after their endorphins wear off. I think some of the crew think it is genuine, I saw one of the camera man crying during the sermon.

 

[Cyphermage]

Faith healers encourage these people to believe they will be healed, to throw away their medications. Faith healers tell them that only if they truly believe they will be healed and if they take their medications, then they are showing a lack of faith.

Well, that's certainly a testable statement. Can you provide evidence of a case in which one of the serious non-Tilton-esque faith healers like Oral Roberts told someone with a diagnosed illness like diabetes or heart disease or a seizure disorder to prove their faith by stopping medication prescribed by a physician?

A short clip of Benny Hinn telling an epileptic that Dilantin is the "work of the devil" would do nicely.

 

[Luke T.]

In the 60 Minutes report in 1998 the reporter opened by declaring that Benny Hinn is a "dangerous fake" and a shameless salesman selling false hope.

The report featured people who had been declared healed but still suffered with their illness, including one woman who had stopped taking her doctor's medication.

Hinn said that neither he nor his staff would recommend that anyone throw away their medicine or stop going to their doctors.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/hinn/hinn57.html

 

[Luke T.]

Are you taking both medicines and supplements? Are you substituting one for the other? Taking a combination of supplements, using these products together with medications (whether prescription or over-the-counter), or substituting them in place of medicines your doctor prescribes could lead to harmful, even life-threatening results.

Benny Hinn Ministries.

 

[Luke T.]

Secondly, the word "healing" means "to free from errors and sins." Isn't it interesting that the same word that means "to cure" is also connected to sin? One of the most common things that keeps people from being healed is sin that has not been confessed before God.

Sin will keep you from being healed because it takes faith to be healed, and sin turns your faith off.

Benny Hinn Ministries.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

Taking a old womans cain and making her jump around to amuse the audience is harmfull. Just go to a live show and see what dosent make the TV cut. You should be there when the old woman returns to relaity and has to limp back to her car with a now heavily aggrivated injury.

None of them including Hinn and Roberts have ever tried to heal a amputee. Shouldnt they give it a shot? Do you think its just chance that the only people who make it on stage are suffering from non visible injuries?

Just go to one of his crusades and see if your opinion changes. You have to see the non televised bits to understand how truly horrid these people are. The fact that Benny has not been mightily smited is strong evidence against god.

 

[c4ts]

I find it makes too little a difference whether they believe it or not. It's not helping either way.

 

[Cyphermage]

None of them including Hinn and Roberts have ever tried to heal a amputee. Shouldnt they give it a shot? Do you think its just chance that the only people who make it on stage are suffering from non visible injuries?

Healing amputees is not part of their religious tradition, which does include making the blind see, the crippled walk, and the raising of stinky corpses from the dead after days of rotting. It doesn't include limb restoration.

Fundamentalists are not permitted "writer's embellishments" to scripture.

Just go to one of his crusades and see if your opinion changes. You have to see the non televised bits to understand how truly horrid these people are. The fact that Benny has not been mightily smited is strong evidence against god.

If he's knowingly doing harm, he deserves to be smited. If he's only being voluntarily paid by consenting adults to fill their psychological and entertainment needs, he's providing a service at the request of his clients.

Would you have us pass a law that says that lonely sick people can't visit someone, to be told that God loves them, and that there is always hope? Or that they can't give such people gifts and money?

I can see it now. Police in riot gear with pepper spray, beanbag guns, and fire hoses, beating the crap out of a large crowd of sick people in wheelchairs with oxygen, to save them from their adult decisions.

By the way, what's your opinion on Jerry Lewis and the whole MDA circus? There you have mostly kids, not consenting adults, performing in a yearly pity parade for dollars. Is that exploitation, and is it better or worse than Benny Hinn exploitation?

 

[blutoski]

ETA: I wonder if any journalist has ever confronted any one of these guys with this line of thought?

Depends on what you call a 'journalist' these days. I think Jon Ronson deals with Hinn in one of his books.

 

[blutoski]

Taking a old womans cain and making her jump around to amuse the audience is harmfull. Just go to a live show and see what dosent make the TV cut. You should be there when the old woman returns to relaity and has to limp back to her car with a now heavily aggrivated injury.

None of them including Hinn and Roberts have ever tried to heal a amputee. Shouldnt they give it a shot? Do you think its just chance that the only people who make it on stage are suffering from non visible injuries?

Just go to one of his crusades and see if your opinion changes. You have to see the non televised bits to understand how truly horrid these people are. The fact that Benny has not been mightily smited is strong evidence against god.

Mm. That's Randi's observation about Lourdes: lots of discarded canes and crutches and bottles of heart pills, but no discarded glass eyes or prosthetic arms.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

By the way, what's your opinion on Jerry Lewis and the whole MDA circus? There you have mostly kids, not consenting adults, performing in a yearly pity parade for dollars. Is that exploitation, and is it better or worse than Benny Hinn exploitation?

If Jerry took the wheelchair bound kids by the hands and made them step across the stage I would be against it. You have obviously never been to a miracle crusade if you cant see the harm. Have you ever seen somebody with severe back problems goaded into a minute of furious jumping after the adrenaline wears off? Its not a pretty sight.