• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Do DNA tests measure ethnic purity?

I just noticed a new article in PLOS One that suggests a re-interpretation of a ape-like fossil found in southeastern Europe in the 1920's (I think) . The new interpretation by the authors is that this fossil (one specimen available?) has features in one of their teeth roots such that it can be considered a hominid and therefore indicates that a very early contributor to the human lineage evolved in Europe, not Africa. Many of the popular press articles greatly over-hype this in headlines to indicate that this means that Europe, now Africa, may have spawned the "first members of the human evolutionary family around 7 million years ago" even though everyone recognizes, including the authors of this study, that all lineages leading to hominids and modern day humans originated n Africa, with the only questions being where they first had enough combined features to consider them hominids and how much each contributed to the modern day humans.

Frankly even though this is a peer reviewed article, I wonder if the interpretation (not the data) will hold up. It is based on only one very sparse characteristic- tooth root structure- in a very incomplete fossil and there is significant evidence that suggests otherwise. It would also require that this hominid migrated back to Africa to account for the documented later waves of hominids out of Africa. I agree with the experts who are skeptical: that this was probably an ape with one or a few hominid-like characteristics. Or perhaps this was a creature who evolved in a territory that spanned both Africa and southeastern Europe. Pinning down exactly when an ape became a hominid is arbitrary any way and engenders much controversy in the field. Hopefully more analysis and more time will tell.
 
It is immensely pathetic that people can derive a sense of exaggerated self-worth from thinking that millions of years ago an ancestor of theirs lived 1,000 miles further north than previously thought.
Anthropology isn't the same as Real Estate brokerage: location isn't everything.
 
To put it delicately, you can always be sure who the mother is; however........
Commonly held but no you can't. Obviously less likely but I have relatives that did not know their mother was not their mother for many decades. They only learnt the truth from a misplaced comment at a family funeral.

Knowing what I do about my fine upstanding staunch Christian family has got up to over the last hundred or so years I say all birth certificates should be viewed as provisional at best!
 
It is immensely pathetic that people can derive a sense of exaggerated self-worth from thinking that millions of years ago an ancestor of theirs lived 1,000 miles further north than previously thought.
Anthropology isn't the same as Real Estate brokerage: location isn't everything.

Apparently white supremacists place an extreme amount of value on which side of the Mediterranean their ancestors lived 7 million years ago. I guess if one is extraordinarily embarrassed by one's own life one must look to own's distinct ancestors for some bizarre and bogus form of affirmation.

One interesting fact in this regard- chimps have white skin under their fur. I don't hear of white supremacists referring this fact when they discuss how whites are a superior product of evolution.
 
I ordered us kits from Ancestry yesterday, choosing that over 23&Me because of a small discount due to already being members. We've been doing genealogy, off and on, for 30+ years so it'll be interesting to see how it corresponds to what we already know. My wife is half German (East Prussia) and the rest mostly English with an admixture of Dutch. I'm 1/4 Danish and the rest mostly English with a small admixture of German (Rhineland Pfalz).
I wonder if it'll show the strong strain of Methodism which runs through both of us? :)
 
It is immensely pathetic that people can derive a sense of exaggerated self-worth from thinking that millions of years ago an ancestor of theirs lived 1,000 miles further north than previously thought.
Anthropology isn't the same as Real Estate brokerage: location isn't everything.

For some it might be a racist mission, but the fact is we are all of the same species, albeit some will have traces of archaic humans. Bear in mind, early Europeans had brown skin and blue eyes (for example, Hohlenstein-stadel remains found in the place of the same name (near Stuttgart side of what is now Germany). We can't be stopped from discussing this, just because of fear of political incorrectness.

Given the fact of parallel evolution in South America and Africa (for example, the humble aloe vera) it's not completely impossible for some varieties of early hominids to have evolved in other parts of the earth. We have had Bronze Age-style heatwaves in Europe (for example, Denmark was once as balmy as Spain is today).

I concur with the convincing studies which show all of homo sapiens evolve from out of Africa. However, there are perfectly respectable archaeologists who consider the jury to be out on this.

New studies show that neanderthals, for example, were not quite the brutes we all consider them to be (it has now been discovered they buried their dead and had a crude form of art, as far back as circa 45K years ago).

It's rather like Egyptology: there is the establishment view, and then there are Graham Hancock-types who write thrilling books which are fun to read, although nobody believes a word of it.

Views change all the time. Thor Heydal, for example, was the establishment voice not so long ago, and it was a textbook 'fact' that 'Neanderthals were extinct before homo sapiens arrived from Africa, and therefore the two species categorically never mixed.

We now know that they did.
 
Apparently white supremacists place an extreme amount of value on which side of the Mediterranean their ancestors lived 7 million years ago. I guess if one is extraordinarily embarrassed by one's own life one must look to own's distinct ancestors for some bizarre and bogus form of affirmation.

One interesting fact in this regard- chimps have white skin under their fur. I don't hear of white supremacists referring this fact when they discuss how whites are a superior product of evolution.

It's all very silly. It can be a symptom of mental illness. A form of paranoia.

There was a propaganda exhibition at British Library about three years ago. It was very scary to see the type of stuff the Nazis were feeding the population. People used to believe this stuff and freak out.
 
Question for the mathematically minded genealogist here, if any:

If several people are oh, say, 6th cousins, and they interbreed, wouldn't the offspring have the genetic similarity of 5th cousins? And if they repeat, 4th cousins?

23&Me lists 1300 relatives, all less than 1/2 % 'cousins'. Calls them 4-5-6th cousins. It sounds like I must be related to EVERYbody in the homeland of my grandparents. But not as bonafide 4th cousins.

It must be related to principle in post 43 above, where we all share a common ancestor 3,000 years ago. Being from a small country, I would expect that at about 7-10 generations, we all be 4th cousins, cuz. Seems pointless trying to link my supposed 4th cousins to me.
 
Last edited:
It's all very silly. It can be a symptom of mental illness. A form of paranoia.

There was a propaganda exhibition at British Library about three years ago. It was very scary to see the type of stuff the Nazis were feeding the population. People used to believe this stuff and freak out.
You can see the same type of exhibit at the Holocaust Museum in Washington.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
 
Using Mitochondrial DNA, it is indeed possible to tell if you are ethnically Jewish, because Judaism is passed through the mother's line.
Some traditional Jews have used to DNA sequencing to determine to which of the original Tribes of Israel their ancestors belonged - this can be done so reliably that for a brief time, Israeli Immigrations allowed DNA sequences as evidence for your heritage for becoming a citizen.

For everyone else and in any other context, ethnicity is something very vague unless.

I'm curious, did they test Ethiopian Jews and if so what was the result?
 
I ordered us kits from Ancestry yesterday, choosing that over 23&Me because of a small discount due to already being members. We've been doing genealogy, off and on, for 30+ years so it'll be interesting to see how it corresponds to what we already know. My wife is half German (East Prussia) and the rest mostly English with an admixture of Dutch. I'm 1/4 Danish and the rest mostly English with a small admixture of German (Rhineland Pfalz).
I wonder if it'll show the strong strain of Methodism which runs through both of us? :)

Does the kit ask you for basic information or does it test the DNA cold? Just curious.
 
For some it might be a racist mission, but the fact is we are all of the same species, albeit some will have traces of archaic humans. Bear in mind, early Europeans had brown skin and blue eyes (for example, Hohlenstein-stadel remains found in the place of the same name (near Stuttgart side of what is now Germany). We can't be stopped from discussing this, just because of fear of political incorrectness.

Given the fact of parallel evolution in South America and Africa (for example, the humble aloe vera) it's not completely impossible for some varieties of early hominids to have evolved in other parts of the earth. We have had Bronze Age-style heatwaves in Europe (for example, Denmark was once as balmy as Spain is today).
The fossil record is full of gaps so it's not surprising to me that they've found other non-sapien branches of homo besides Neanderthal.

Just as a point of interest, genetic mapping of human migration out of Africa showed black skin evolved twice. Skin became lighter as humans migrated north and then darker again as they migrated down to the equator in South America. It takes thousands of years.

In the meantime whites in Australia need hats. :p
 
Question for the mathematically minded genealogist here, if any:

If several people are oh, say, 6th cousins, and they interbreed, wouldn't the offspring have the genetic similarity of 5th cousins? And if they repeat, 4th cousins?
Don't know how related people look that many cousins removed other than you can find people are in the same haplogroups, but by the time you dilute out a few family branches we all have the same differences between us ~.05%.

Genetic studies found we all differ about the same amount from each other whether we are from the same town, same country, same continent, or not.

Human genetic variation
On average, in terms of DNA sequence all humans are 99.5% similar to any other humans.[2][3]...

[2] Dr.Craig Venter, Aaron. "In the Genome Race, the Sequel Is Personal".
[3] Jump up ^ Samuel Levy; Granger Sutton; Pauline C Ng; Lars Feuk; Aaron L Halpern; Brian P Walenz; Nelson Axelrod; Jiaqi Huang; Ewen F Kirkness; Gennady Denisov; Yuan Lin; Jeffrey R MacDonald; Andy Wing Chun Pang; Mary Shago; Timothy B Stockwell; Alexia Tsiamouri; Vineet Bafna; Vikas Bansal; Saul A Kravitz; Dana A Busam; Karen Y Beeson; Tina C McIntosh; Karin A Remington; Josep F Abril; John Gill; Jon Borman; Yu-Hui Rogers; Marvin E Frazier; Stephen W Scherer; Robert L Strausberg; J. Craig Venter (4 September 2007). "The Diploid Genome Sequence of an Individual Human.". PLOS Biology. Public Library of Science. p. Author Summary. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0050254. Retrieved 21 March 2016.

Unfortunately I can't find the hour long lecture Mary Claire King gives on the subject where my information came from, probably it's too old. The way Claire King put it, we all differ from each other by about 3 million base pairs of nucleotides out of the 3 billion that make up the human genome. I know that doesn't come out to .05% so I chalk that up to a false memory or maybe the number is better known now, but the gist is the same, we are all different and we are all the same.

Here's King's professor page: Mary Claire-King, U of WA.


23&Me lists 1300 relatives, all less than 1/2 % 'cousins'. Calls them 4-5-6th cousins. It sounds like I must be related to EVERYbody in the homeland of my grandparents. But not as bonafide 4th cousins.

It must be related to principle in post 43 above, where we all share a common ancestor 3,000 years ago. Being from a small country, I would expect that at about 7-10 generations, we all be 4th cousins, cuz. Seems pointless trying to link my supposed 4th cousins to me.
I haven't looked into that 3,000 year ago ancestor but on it's face, it's dubious. Surely Australian Aboriginals don't share an ancestor with most of the rest of us, they were isolated for some 50-60,000 years and though there is mixing now, that would require everyone of them is of mixed ethnicity and I don't think that's true.

Mitochondrial Eve
a 2009 estimate cites an age between c. 152 and 234 thousand years ago (95% CI);[3] a 2013 study cites a range of 99–148 thousand years ago.[4]...

More recent age estimates have remained consistent with the 140–200 kya estimate published in 1987: A 2013 estimate dated Mitochondrial Eve to about 160 kya (within the reserved estimate of the original research) and Out of Africa II to about 95 kya.[33] Another 2013 study (based on genome sequencing of 69 people from 9 different populations) reported the age of Mitochondrial Eve between 99 to 148 kya and that of the Y-MRCA between 120 and 156 kya.[4]

And Y-Chromosome Adam
the discovery of archaic Y-haplogroup has pushed back the estimated age of the Y-MRCA beyond the most likely age of the mt-MRCA. As of 2015, estimates of the age of the Y-MRCA range around 200,000 to 300,000 years ago, roughly consistent with the emergence of anatomically modern humans.[5]

Most recent common ancestor
The age of the human MRCA is unknown. It is necessarily younger than the age of both Y-MRCA and mt-MRCA, estimated at around 200,000 years, and it may be as recent as some 3,000 years ago.[2]
That doesn't say is 3,000 years ago, it says one study suggests...

The source of the 3,000 year claim:
Ciccarelli FD, Doerks T, von Mering C, Creevey CJ, Snel B, Bork P; Doerks; von Mering; Creevey; Snel; Bork (2006). "Toward automatic reconstruction of a highly resolved tree of life". Science. 311 (5765): 1283–7. Bibcode:2006Sci...311.1283C. doi:10.1126/science.1123061. PMID 16513982.
I would wait for confirmation before buying the 3,000 yr timeline because it seems inconsistent to me with what we know about human migration out of Africa. I mean, even the priests that did the math on all the 'begets' in the Bible came up with 6,000 years. :p
 
Last edited:
Only ordered last night, will let you know. If it asks what I already know, that's a strike against.

Thanks. I'm so suspicious of these tests. :p

I'm curious to try it. I was going to go with the Nat Geo version but a couple of the reviews sounded like one didn't get any better information than the other tests.
 
Question for the mathematically minded genealogist here, if any:

If several people are oh, say, 6th cousins, and they interbreed, wouldn't the offspring have the genetic similarity of 5th cousins? And if they repeat, 4th cousins?

23&Me lists 1300 relatives, all less than 1/2 % 'cousins'. Calls them 4-5-6th cousins. It sounds like I must be related to EVERYbody in the homeland of my grandparents. But not as bonafide 4th cousins.

It must be related to principle in post 43 above, where we all share a common ancestor 3,000 years ago. Being from a small country, I would expect that at about 7-10 generations, we all be 4th cousins, cuz. Seems pointless trying to link my supposed 4th cousins to me.

Perhaps what would be happening is a regression towards the mean? Though that would depend on what the mean is. Anybody?
 
New studies show that neanderthals, for example, were not quite the brutes we all consider them to be (it has now been discovered they buried their dead and had a crude form of art, as far back as circa 45K years ago).
Nobody who has read anything at all on the subject thinks that. The first discovery of evidence that they buried their dead was made in 1908.
 
Question for the mathematically minded genealogist here, if any:

If several people are oh, say, 6th cousins, and they interbreed, wouldn't the offspring have the genetic similarity of 5th cousins? And if they repeat, 4th cousins?
I'm not sure if I understand this but I think it's wrong? What kind of similarity and between who exactly?

23&Me lists 1300 relatives, all less than 1/2 % 'cousins'. Calls them 4-5-6th cousins. It sounds like I must be related to EVERYbody in the homeland of my grandparents. But not as bonafide 4th cousins.

It must be related to principle in post 43 above, where we all share a common ancestor 3,000 years ago. Being from a small country, I would expect that at about 7-10 generations, we all be 4th cousins, cuz. Seems pointless trying to link my supposed 4th cousins to me.

I was so fascinated by the paper I quoted in post 43 that I had a look at papers citing it to see if there had been any more recent developments. One of the papers that caught my eye may answer your questions.

Cryptic Distant Relatives Are Common in Both Isolated and Cosmopolitan Genetic Samples

Abstract:
Although a few hundred single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) suffice to infer close familial relationships, high density genome-wide SNP data make possible the inference of more distant relationships such as 2nd to 9th cousinships. In order to characterize the relationship between genetic similarity and degree of kinship given a timeframe of 100–300 years, we analyzed the sharing of DNA inferred to be identical by descent (IBD) in a subset of individuals from the 23andMe customer database (n = 22,757) and from the Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP-CEPH, n = 952). With data from 121 populations, we show that the average amount of DNA shared IBD in most ethnolinguistically-defined populations, for example Native American groups, Finns and Ashkenazi Jews, differs from continentally-defined populations by several orders of magnitude. Via extensive pedigree-based simulations, we determined bounds for predicted degrees of relationship given the amount of genomic IBD sharing in both endogamous and ‘unrelated’ population samples. Using these bounds as a guide, we detected tens of thousands of 2nd to 9th degree cousin pairs within a heterogenous set of 5,000 Europeans. The ubiquity of distant relatives, detected via IBD segments, in both ethnolinguistic populations and in large ‘unrelated’ populations samples has important implications for genetic genealogy, forensics and genotype/phenotype mapping studies.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom