Do brains really exist?

[Interesting Ian]

Not at all. The only person compelled to come to that idiotic conclusion would be brain dead.

Well tell me then Jeff. In a split brain person how do the 2 hemispheres communicate with each other in order to give a unified sense of self?

 

[Beleth]

Amazing isn't it? Split the brain in 2 and we don't notice any difference whatsoever apart from highly contrived experimental circumstances. It seems we are compelled to conclude there must be something doing the unifying over and above the brain.

Or that, except for HCEC, the experiences the two halves have are virtually identical.

Given the physical proximity of the sensory organs that feed each half of the brain, I find that explanation more likely than that there's some mystical unifier.

 

[Interesting Ian]

The way science often works is this: Anecdotal evidence spurs the interests of scientists. Scientists design a set of experiments to test the implications of the anecdotes, to see if they are true.

You have rejected the experiments as being irrelevant, so we have fallen back to anecdotes, which you have often found convincing in the past. We're just trying to be accommodating, that's all.

Which experiments?? I know about the highly contrived ones, and they are clearly interesting and support the notion of a self being an illusion.

On the other hand, the fact that split brain people appear to be normal under everyday circumstances support the notion of a substantial self unifying all ones experiences and events in the brain.

If split brain people under normal circumstances acted exactly like they did under these highly contrived experiments, then this would deal a blow to the notion of such a substantial unifying self.

Indeed materialism would not just expect this to happen, but more or less demand it I would have thought.

 

[lifegazer]

Bogen, [7] in his comprehensive chapter on the callosal syndrome following surgical section of the corpus callosum for epilepsy, introduced the term intermanual conflict to refer to a dissociative phenomenon seen in the early postoperative period, in which one hand (or limb) acts at cross purposes to the other. One patient was observed buttoning up his shirt with one hand while the other hand was coming along right behind unbuttoning it. In performing the Jendrassik maneuver, the left hand pushed the right hand away rather than clasping it.

This does not constitute evidence of the existence of two individual awarenesses existing within the same brain. It just constitutes evidence of involuntary hand movement.

 

[lifegazer]

Then again, Ian, you two seem to me more and more like equal. Lets see, what constitutes and individual? You believe you have an answer to this, when in fact you are just ingorant about the subject. And you are willing to demonstrate it at all costs.

One has to learn, like a gentleman, when one is wrong. Dont you think?

The individual is 'he' that is aware of the totality of a specific set of thoughts, feelings and sensations.

 

[Yahweh]

How on earth do you conclude they function in a similar way? Are you completely daft?

*sigh*

Let me spell it out:
* You have two eyes, they process two seperate images. But, you dont actually see these images as individual and seperate, because your brain superimposes each of the images into single experience.

* You have two hemispheres, they process seperate tasks. You brain superimposes each of these tasks into a single experience.

Thats it. Theres no trickery of language, its just an analogy because I thought it would help clarify some concerns.

I want evidence that people can readily tell who is a split brain person under normal everyday circumstances.

I dont think you'll get that evidence on a bit of a technicality, because the hemispheres are only split partially. According to Disenchanted Dictionary - Corpus Callosum, "While the corpus callosum can be severed, there are still lower-level connections between the two hemispheres, enough so that the patient can still coordinate actions such as walking".

Or in really simple words: split-brain people are normal in everyday circumstances, because their hemispheres have not been seperated completely.

 

[Donks]

This does not constitute evidence of the existence of two individual awarenesses existing within the same brain. It just constitutes evidence of involuntary hand movement.

I wasn't looking for evidence of two individual awarenesses, I was looking for evidence that the syndromes that appear after a split brain operation do also occur under normal circumstances.

 

[ReFLeX]

The way you continue to use the words, you'd think "highly contrived" was an actual term. Where are any references to these Highly Contrived Experiments?

 

[lifegazer]

I wasn't looking for evidence of two individual awarenesses, I was looking for evidence that the syndromes that appear after a split brain operation do also occur under normal circumstances.

Well all this talk about split-brains started in response to my argument about individual awareness. The response was being used to negate that argument.
If this chat about split-brains cannot establish the existence of more than one individual existing at the same time, then the discussion has zero relevance to my argument.

 

[Beleth]

One patient was observed buttoning up his shirt with one hand while the other hand was coming along right behind unbuttoning it.

This does not constitute evidence of the existence of two individual awarenesses existing within the same brain. It just constitutes evidence of involuntary hand movement.

Oh, I get it! You're jesting again!

You almost got me to point out that there's no way that a specific, precise, unnatural, repetitive act such as unbuttoning a shirt could possibly be considered "involuntary," but I realized you were joking before I did so.

Phew!

 

[Jeff Corey]

Well tell me then Jeff. In a split brain person how do the 2 hemispheres communicate with each other in order to give a unified sense of self?

Who says they do? And the "unified sense of self" is a series of private events, and as such, not amenable to scientific scutiny.

 

[Piscivore]

The individual is 'he' that is aware of the totality of a specific set of thoughts, feelings and sensations.

Even when you redefine the term, you fail.

There is no "human" that is totally aware of every thought, feeling, or sensation that affects, (and indeed effects) "him."

Up the grade, squire.

 

[Donks]

Well all this talk about split-brains started in response to my argument about individual awareness. The response was being used to negate that argument.
If this chat about split-brains cannot establish the existence of more than one individual existing at the same time, then the discussion has zero relevance to my argument.

Sorry, I was responding to Interesting Ian, not you, not your argument. It wasn't meant to have any relevance to it.

 

[Atlas]

If this chat about split-brains cannot establish the existence of more than one individual existing at the same time, then the discussion has zero relevance to my argument.

Lg,

In your philosophy a singularity fractured its consciousness into 6 billion simultaneous experiences of the delusion of being lost from itself. The delusion is elaborate with an illusion of a physical world and physical selves that are but the singularity's attempt to experience disunity in many ways.

One way is as Siamese twins, which represents the simultaneous cohabitation of two individuals sharing aspects of the same self. Why are you not trumpeting that your God could do anything. This does not surprise you that one brain/self could have two simultaneous experiences - your God excels at simultaneous experiances.

I thought you'd be saying something like,

Atlas faking lifegazer "My philosophy allows for multiple experiences in any body. Things that look like Frogs to us can be a simultaneous experience of a prince and princess. A jellyfish and a carpenter can occupy the same brain as simultaneous experiences in a singularity, why should that surprise. I am part jackass. My God can fool himself with any experience or experiences He wants - that's why He's God and you aren't - (although you really are God acting through the deluded experience that you are not God. I hope that's finally clear, plonkers.)"

Please explain your position on whether God is powerful enough to create any delusion of lostness He wants. I'm confused.

 

[Iacchus]

A No Brainer?

And then there's this guy you see who had no brain ...

 

[jmercer]

Got a source with some crediblity and authority for this?

 

[Iacchus]

Got a source with some crediblity and authority for this?

Other than the link provided? No, but I'm sure it could be Googled.

 

[jmercer]

Other than the link provided? No, but I'm sure it could be Googled.

Well, since you offered the article in support of lg, please let me know how your google goes.

 

[c4ts]

What a thick response.

Why? Once you've removed that soft pile of useless tissue in your head (if there is anything in there), all you would have to do is complete the million dollar challenge application, get a CAT scan or two, take an IQ test and score average or above, then send the results to Randi with the form. The power to think without a brain would easily earn you a million dollars.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Sometimes I hate to do the homeworks of others, yet some other times I find it pleasurable. This is one of those times.

Interesting Ian

I want evidence that people can readily tell who is a split brain person under normal everyday circumstances.

Lifegazer

This does not constitute evidence of the existence of two individual awarenesses existing within the same brain. It just constitutes evidence of involuntary hand movement.

This answer is for you both. You begged for it, being unable to do some research on your ownand stop being... well, whatever you like to be. Its not my job to educate you, but then again, sometimes is needed, specially since you two are so reticent in even reading something that is contrary to what you believe.

Anyway, here is an awesome quote I got from here I made enphasis on some relevant passages, doing your homework again!

Paul's right hemisphere developed considerable language ability sometime previous to the operation. Although it is uncommon, occasionally the right hemisphere may share substantial neural circuits with, or even dominate, the left hemisphere's centers for language comprehension and production. The fact that Paul's right hemisphere was so well developed in it's verbal capacity opened a closed door for researchers. For almost all split brain patients, the thoughts and perceptions of the right hemisphere are locked away from expression. Researchers were finally able to interview both hemispheres on their views about friendship, love, hate and aspirations.

Paul's right hemisphere stated that he wanted to be an automobile racer while his left hemisphere wanted to be a draftsman. Both hemispheres were asked to write whether they liked or disliked a series of items. The study was performed during the Watergate scandal, and one of the items was Richard Nixon. Paul's right hemisphere expressed "dislike," while his left expressed "like." Most split-brain patients would not be able to express the opinions of their right hemispheres as Paul S. did, but this gives us insight on the hidden differences between the hemispheres.

These hidden differences are allowed to demonstrate themselves after a split brain operation because the two hemispheres are closer to existing independently. One hemisphere may not be able to suppress or influence differing opinions, emotions, or desires of the other because most of the communication between the two can no longer occur. As a result, conflicting hemispheric desires or opinions can cause split brain patients to exhibit some strange behaviors. One patient found his left hand struggling against his right hand when trying to pull up his pants in the morning. While the right hand tried to pull them up, the left was trying to pull them down. On another occasion, he was angry with his wife and attacked her with his left hand while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right!

Enough of this. Learn what you want.