Do animals feel?

[screensnot]

I've read a lot of stuff on dogs that argues persuasively that they can't feel guilt, which is an emotion than many people ascribe to them. What people read as guilt in dogs is actually confusion or fear.

The training implication is that it's pointless to punish dogs after the fact. After a few minutes, they no longer associate any of their past actions with what is currently happening to them... they just don't have the mental equipment.

So let's say a dog poops in a corner. Its owner comes home an hour later, the dog runs up and greets the owner. The owner sees the poop, drags the dog over the corner and yells BAD DOG. The dog then looks guilty and tucks its tail between its legs. But the dog is really thinking "why am I being punished for greeting my owner? I am confused, unhappy and unsure of my proper social position." Also, the next time the dog wants to poop, it might go that corner and then think "I am punished when I go to this corner. Therefore I should not poop here. I will go and poop in that other corner."

When I was growing up we had a dog that was very intelligent. And I think she felt guilt.

It was a rare occasion that she did something bad. But the temptation of something particularly tasty in the garbage would sometimes get the better of her.

If she were to get into the garbage and make a mess, she would look "guilty" when we got home. She would greet us with her tail between her legs and a very sad look in her eyes. We knew, before we had even seen the mess, what she had done.

Now I can't say for sure that what she was feeling was "guilt". It could have simply been fear of the scolding that she knew was coming.

But, scolding may not even be the right word for it. What we would do is call her over and tell her to sit close by as we cleaned up her mess (yes, she was so obedient that she would come at one call, and sit right where we pointed). As we cleaned the mess, we would talk to her in a disappointed voice about how we didn't like cleaning up after her. Then, when we were finished cleaning, we usually gave her a big hug and told her she was forgiven (her sad face was just too much too take). After that, she'd be happy again, and all was forgotten.

That dog was one of a kind though. I have never seen another dog that even comes close to her intelligence. For instance, when we took her camping, we would walk her around the boundry of our campsite once, then know that she would not cross that line without permission. If she saw a squirrel or something, she would give chase right up to her boundry, then stop like there was a wall there.

 

[Lamuella]

intelligence, emotion, self-awareness and so forth are things that happen by degree. If there's such a thing as a soul then it is also a matter of degree rather than hard and fast division.

 

[pgwenthold]

Yes, but it had nothing to do with morality, right/wrong, or issues of self-interest.

It most certainly did have to do with self-interest. "What is the easier way for me to get in the door?"

It was all about a decision that had nothing to do with survival, and one of mere convenience.

If convenience isn't an issue of self-interest, then what is?

 

[chriswl]

But if he has no "self consciousness" then why would he associate this feeling with his personal hunger? If he doesn't have an idea of "self" then he wouldn't ever see the need to do anything for himself..Including eat or fight for himself.

You obviously don't understand the idea of self-consciousness/self-awareness. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness.

Note the following:

"The ability to self-analyze (or scrutinize) is widely believed among psychologists not to develop until mid-childhood, and arguably is present in only a few species of animals. Tests performed for self-consciousness include applying a bright dot to a subjects forehead, and then placing them in front of a mirror – if they reach for their own forehead, it appears they are self-conscious."

 

[supercorgi]

I like your sig Corgi.

Thanks!

 

[wolfgirl]

I can't believe I just now noticed this thread; this is one of my favorite topics of all time! I've read numerous books on the subject, and if I was able to find a way (winning the lottery, maybe), I would go back to school and get a Ph.D. in animal behavior or something similar.

I definitely believe that non-human animals have emotions. They may not be exactly the same or to the same degree as ours. This is particularly true of mammals, since we evolved on similar tracks. It only makes sense to me that we don't have this one glaring difference. Humans and other mammals have so many physical similarities (we have two eyes, two ears, a nose, a heart, a bladder, etc.), it seems logical to assume that we aren't so different brain-wise, either.

It seems more likely rather than less that they have emotions. As stated by a couple of other posters, it seems to me the only reason to say that they don't is based on religious-type beliefs of our superiority over "animals," which stems from denying that we are animals, too.

Some animals have superior sense of smell or vision, but that doesn't mean that the other animals don't have these sense at all. I tend to believe that we simply have a higher level of emotion than other animals.

I hate, hate, hate being told not to "anthropomorphize" animals. Isn't that just another way of saying humans aren't animals? If I say my cat is hungry, am I "anthropomorphizing"? Then why am I doing so if I say he is scared (when it is obvious that he is by his every body gesture and facial expression)?

I know that much of what has been discussed here has been anecdotal evidence rather than scientific. While I am hugely supportive of the scientific method, I don't think that people's experiences can simply be discarded as irrelevant. They can be interpreted in many different ways, but I think the bottom line that many have said is true: Anyone who has ever had (and truly loved) a pet doesn't have to even ask this question. We know.

 

[bruto]

I hate, hate, hate being told not to "anthropomorphize" animals. Isn't that just another way of saying humans aren't animals? If I say my cat is hungry, am I "anthropomorphizing"? Then why am I doing so if I say he is scared (when it is obvious that he is by his every body gesture and facial expression)?

I think there are different ways of anthropomorphizing, and it may depend on how you define it. I wouldn't say that attibuting emotions or feelings or even thought to animals is anthropormorphizing, just because we use the same general names for them. But many people seem not to be able to do that without also thinking of the animals as little people who think about things the same way we do, but just can't quite put it into words. I think it does a disservice to the cat's nature and intelligence to read its emotions as miniature human ones.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Look at it this way. Our human conscioius evolved over many years and is distinct from other animals.

The consciousness of dogs for instance is very different than that of Human beings in ways we can't possibly imagine.

My dog for instance seems like he's on drugs all of the time. LSD or something. His eyes roll all around and he lays down on the floor all sprawed out and just licks the floor. Something that I've seen people using LSD do. He'll run up and down the hallway over and over again like he is on speed and then he'll suddenly crash and sleep for hours. I see no reason for him to do such a thing other than the fact he sees the world completly different from me and feels things that I do not feel. The same can be said for people using psychadelic drugs.

Various drugs effect the way humans think and feel if you've ever done such drugs. I'm trying to explain it in a way so you realize how you can't compaire other animals to humans in terms of "intelligence" or "consciousness". They obviously have both but it's on a different level than us humans. They think and feel differently.

All of our emotions and consciousness evolved and is distinct from other animals. That means it's impossible for us to grasp just how they see the world or how they feel. However If you've ever done mind altering drugs you can get an idea of how big of a difference it is to have your preceptions changed like that. That's how other Animals would be. Their preceptions are completly different from us humans. That's the way they evolved.

They obviously preceive the world and think and feel and have emotions but they can't be compaired to humans. And no one species can be compaired to another species either.

Am I making sense?

 

[wolfgirl]

Look at it this way. Our human conscioius evolved over many years and is distinct from other animals.

The consciousness of dogs for instance is very different than that of Human beings in ways we can't possibly imagine.

My dog for instance seems like he's on drugs all of the time. LSD or something. His eyes roll all around and he lays down on the floor all sprawed out and just licks the floor. Something that I've seen people using LSD do. He'll run up and down the hallway over and over again like he is on speed and then he'll suddenly crash and sleep for hours. I see no reason for him to do such a thing other than the fact he sees the world completly different from me and feels things that I do not feel. The same can be said for people using psychadelic drugs.

Various drugs effect the way humans think and feel if you've ever done such drugs. I'm trying to explain it in a way so you realize how you can't compaire other animals to humans in terms of "intelligence" or "consciousness". They obviously have both but it's on a different level than us humans. They think and feel differently.

All of our emotions and consciousness evolved and is distinct from other animals. That means it's impossible for us to grasp just how they see the world or how they feel. However If you've ever done mind altering drugs you can get an idea of how big of a difference it is to have your preceptions changed like that. That's how other Animals would be. Their preceptions are completly different from us humans. That's the way they evolved.

They obviously preceive the world and think and feel and have emotions but they can't be compaired to humans. And no one species can be compaired to another species either.

Am I making sense?

I don't think anyone's arguing that they feel and perceive things exactly like we do. The argument is about whether they feel emotions at all. There are people who say that they don't, and I (and several others apparently) strongly disagree. The fact that we can't really understand exactly how they feel doesn't take away from the fact that they obviously feel. I've even heard people say that we don't know if they perceive pain the way we do. I think this is just a justification for using them in horrible experiments. If an animal screams out and struggles to get free when you do something to it, it is probably in pain or experiencing terror. Doesn't take a rocket scientist...

(P.S. Have you really seen people on LSD lick the floor, or was that just on TV or something? It just seems like a Hollywood-ized version of how people on psychedelic drugs act. Um...not that I would know about it myself or anything. I'm just sayin'...)

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I don't think anyone's arguing that they feel and perceive things exactly like we do. The argument is about whether they feel emotions at all. There are people who say that they don't, and I (and several others apparently) strongly disagree. The fact that we can't really understand exactly how they feel doesn't take away from the fact that they obviously feel. I've even heard people say that we don't know if they perceive pain the way we do. I think this is just a justification for using them in horrible experiments. If an animal screams out and struggles to get free when you do something to it, it is probably in pain or experiencing terror. Doesn't take a rocket scientist..

The only people who deny the fact that other animals feel and think are either religious zealots or people who don't know the first thing about evolution. Consciousness is an extremly, extremly advanced thing that could not of possibly evolved in the short time it took humans to evolve. It had to of been present for millions and millions of years gradually changing into what we see today.

(P.S. Have you really seen people on LSD lick the floor, or was that just on TV or something? It just seems like a Hollywood-ized version of how people on psychedelic drugs act. Um...not that I would know about it myself or anything. I'm just sayin'...)

I've seen people smell oranges for hours and stare at a lamp shade for hours while on LSD also. Or lay in the grass and stare up into the sky for hours on end.

Usually having a trip so strong you literally lick the wall or floor you would need a higher dose than usuall.

I think the person I saw doing that also used Exstacy and LSD at the same time.

Though this isn't a drug thread.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Are those Siberian Huskys in your avatar?

I have a Siberian Husky.

 

[wolfgirl]

Are those Siberian Huskys in your avatar?

I have a Siberian Husky.

To be honest, I'm not sure what they are. I just thought the picture was sooooo cute (and vaguely wolf-like) that I had to use it.

I do love Huskies, though. Malamutes, too. In the next two years, my husband and I are building a log home in the country. Once we've settled in, we plan to get a couple of dogs. I'll probably go with a Malamute.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Be sure to have a big fenced in yard or else they'll run away and never come back.