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DNA Tests Contradict Mormon Scripture

ysabella

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Oct 5, 2005
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The Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted from the LA Times:
From the time he was a child in Peru, the Mormon Church instilled in Jose A. Loayza the conviction that he and millions of other Native Americans were descended from a lost tribe of Israel that reached the New World more than 2,000 years ago.

"We were taught all the blessings of that Hebrew lineage belonged to us and that we were special people," said Loayza, now a Salt Lake City attorney. "It not only made me feel special, but it gave me a sense of transcendental identity, an identity with God."

A few years ago, Loayza said, his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East.

Critics of the Book of Mormon have long cited anachronisms in its narrative to argue that it is not the work of God. For instance, the Mormon scriptures contain references to a seven-day week, domesticated horses, cows and sheep, silk, chariots and steel. None had been introduced in the Americas at the time of Christ.

In the 1990s, DNA studies gave Mormon detractors further ammunition and new allies such as Simon G. Southerton, a molecular biologist and former bishop in the church.

Southerton, a senior research scientist with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia, said genetic research allowed him to test his religious views against his scientific training.

Genetic testing of Jews throughout the world had already shown that they shared common strains of DNA from the Middle East. Southerton examined studies of DNA lineages among Polynesians and indigenous peoples in North, Central and South America. One mapped maternal DNA lines from 7,300 Native Americans from 175 tribes.

Southerton found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today's American Indians and Pacific Islanders.

Huh, I'd never heard of this facet of LDS. I didn't know they were telling Native Americans that they were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. Zoiks!
 
Sort of a pitifully weak faith if a little DNA evidence can shake it. Ssheesh. I mean, you've already gone through the episodes with the angels and Jesus appearing, John the baptist showing up in person to do the actual baptizing... and the golden plates. You know that passage in the Bible where Jesus says some will not pass away till he comes again? That's right, some of those guys are among us to this very day.

amen.




Seems a fine time to get all squeamish about scientific evidence nobody understands anyway. :)
 
Occasionally, someone starts a thread along the lines of "why did you give up your faith". The most common answer, including the one given by me, is that we examined something about our faith and found it lacking. In some cases, all it takes is one little thing that introduces a shred of doubt, and then the whole thing comes falling apart like a house of cards.

I suspect this will do the same for a lot of people. They are willing to accept miraculous seabirds eating crickets. They will accept golden plates and magic decoders, temporary polygamy and salvation through post-mortem baptism. Some people will find convenient rationalizations for this, too. However, for some people, they will see DNA evidence and decide that they couldn't have descended from Hebrews, and that will be all it takes to actually get them asking the questions. Once they start asking the questions, the faith is doomed.
 
"Well that was never really doctrine anyway" is the stock Mormon response to this kind of thing. I swear, the left church doesn't know what the right is doing.
 
Huh, I'd never heard of this facet of LDS. I didn't know they were telling Native Americans that they were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. Zoiks!

You should read the Book of Mormon.

Although trying to emulate the language of the KJV-bible, and a hard read at times, the stories in there are pretty good.

Yeah, and black people were turned that color as punishment, happens a lot in the Book of Mormon.
 
I have an illustrated version. Some of the pictures are kind of...fruity.
 
Huh, I'd never heard of this facet of LDS. I didn't know they were telling Native Americans that they were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. Zoiks!

Don't tell me you've never heard of the Shapiro-ho Indians? ;)
 
I have a copy of the Book of Mormon, courtesy of some nice clean-cut youths who came to the door to tell be about some Things They Know To Be True. It is, in fact, illustrated.

I took a look at it, but the quasi-Biblical writing kind of annoyed me.

I've often found the Mormons are sort of interesting, having known some kids in school who were Mormon - the way the community functions, the element of survivalism in their culture. But I read this not-very-good book and it grossed me out about the whole thing for a while.
 
Huh, I'd never heard of this facet of LDS. I didn't know they were telling Native Americans that they were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. Zoiks!
Oh yeah, and many Native Americans and pacific Islanders are buying it.

BTW, I shoveled that crap for two years as a Mormon missionary.

Please note that the jury, based on the evidence, was in long before DNA. Anthropologists documented a plethora of evidence that demonstrated that Native Americans came from Asia. DNA was simply the most recent and most difficult to attempt to explain away. Don't worry though. Faith is stronger than fact.
 
Yes, well, anyone who accepts this latest evidence, might then begin to wonder how a large, healthy human population could have arisen from just 2 individuals in the first place. But I'm not overly optimistic.
 
Yes, well, anyone who accepts this latest evidence, might then begin to wonder how a large, healthy human population could have arisen from just 2 individuals in the first place. But I'm not overly optimistic.
"Anyone who accepts this latest evidence"? I think that is the problem. Most Mormons, even many who are by and large honest, won't accept the evidence. To the faithful god plants dinosaur bones in the ground to test the faithful. With god all things are possible.
 
And that highlights just what a deceitful deity they worship (or it would, if it were true!).
Yup.

The devil is the father is of ALL lies. Except of course when god is lying to test faith. Logic is fluid for believers. I know, I was one.
 
Sort of a pitifully weak faith if a little DNA evidence can shake it. Ssheesh. I mean, you've already gone through the episodes with the angels and Jesus appearing, John the baptist showing up in person to do the actual baptizing... and the golden plates.

There is a big difference between claims of things that purportedly happened in the past which would not necessarily leave testable marks on the present and claims of things that happened in the past which would leave traces up to this day. "Angels and Jesus appearing," etc., belong to the former category, while 6-day creationism and claims of descendency from lost tribes of Israel belong to the latter. It's a lot easier to hold onto an article of faith if it can't be contradicted by present-day facts.
 
I just finished a book about Mormonism (and a murder case related to fundamentalist mormonism) called "Under the Banner of Heaven." I also happen to be native american. Turns out that the garden of Eden was actually in America, and the native american people are direct descendants of Adam and Eve, thus making us the chosen people. Lucky me!

Also of note - their holy prophet Mr. Smith was murdered by an Illinois militia/mob that stormed the jailcell he was being held in on charges of treason (amongst other things). He was shot while trying to jump out of a window and fell to his death, leaving behind 40+ wifes.

Hurray for Mormons!
 
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There is a big difference between claims of things that purportedly happened in the past which would not necessarily leave testable marks on the present and claims of things that happened in the past which would leave traces up to this day. "Angels and Jesus appearing," etc., belong to the former category, while 6-day creationism and claims of descendency from lost tribes of Israel belong to the latter. It's a lot easier to hold onto an article of faith if it can't be contradicted by present-day facts.

And present day facts vis-a-vis genetics, categorically preclude the whole human race arising from two individuals. Faith notwithstanding.
 
Occasionally, someone starts a thread along the lines of "why did you give up your faith". The most common answer, including the one given by me, is that we examined something about our faith and found it lacking. In some cases, all it takes is one little thing that introduces a shred of doubt, and then the whole thing comes falling apart like a house of cards... ... Once they start asking the questions, the faith is doomed.
Yeah I guess you're right. I should be more supportive of people leaving religion. They tend to go back if the reason is not good enough though.

The LA times is not exactly reporting breaking news. About the time I walked away, RLDS had already gone through what the LDS are facing now with the narrower belief of a tiny little Hebrew population that died out... and moved on to the next step of theological musing about the Book of Mormon being metaphorical rather than an actual historic account.

Metaphors are very tasty and I love them dearly, but are quite a bit less filling when your religion is demanding a full workout and a 50 mile hike. If it did not really happen, what's the point?

A 'little thing' that always nagged at me was 'testimony' at the beginning of the BoM that said its purpose was as additional evidence to the convincing of the Jew and gentile etc, that Jesus really came and did what the Bible said he did.

There are questions you are probably not supposed to ask, and one of them goes sort of like - "If I have to accept the Book of Mormon on faith... and I accept the Bible on faith, how is one book evidence for the other again?

It is not so much I ever thought I would get pounded for asking it, it was a kind of fear of asking. You know the answer will be silly so you do not want to hear. You want to keep believing like everyone around you does. To not believe is some kind of character flaw, so it is best to not ask.

Maybe there is a time when the courage to ask the question reaches a kind of tipping point and there is no turning back once crossed.
 
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I just finished a book about Mormonism (and a murder case related to fundamentalist mormonism) called "Under the Banner of Heaven." I also happen to be native american. Turns out that the garden of Eden was actually in America, and the native american people are direct descendants of Adam and Eve, thus making us the chosen people. Lucky me!

Also of note - their holy prophet was murdered by an Illinois militia/mob that stormed the jailcell he was being held in on charges of treason (amongst other things). He was shot while trying to jump out of a window and fell to his death, leaving behind 40+ wifes.

Hurray for Mormons!
I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of this but I only have what I was told to rely on and my own research since leaving the church. Native Americans are ostensibly decendents of a man Named Lehi who was Hebrew living in Israel circa 600 BC. We are all direct decendants of Adam and Eve BTW.

There are some great sites on Mormonism out there.

For Mormons: Recovery from Mormonism
For atheists: Origins of Mormonism
For Christians: Mormonism (but then what is the point?)
 
Oh shoot, you did in fact catch me on the Adam & Eve part, thank you. I almost forgot that whole early-american pilgrim thing. Lehi was the guy with the sword too, right? Some of this stuff is confusing. It was that whole warring factions in America thing that the native americans split off and eventually evolved from.

But the whole garden of Eden in America thing is accurate. Somewhere in Montana if I recall correctly? And the death account is over simplified, but also accurate. He and his brother, Hyrum. They were in jail over that whole Nauvoo Expositor paper scandal, and treason charges.
 
Oh, the official word from the church of LDS.

"Recent attacks on the veracity of the Book of Mormon based on DNA evidence are ill considered. Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin."


It's kind of interesting because with so many different versions of Mormonism, everyone has their own take on it. I wonder what the fundamentalists will say.

Oh and another good site if you're interested in this stuff. This is LAM, who have their own take on Mormonism.

http://www.lifeafter.org/

"Ex-Mormons Helping Mormons Escape the Lie of Mormonism" (through Christ)
 

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