DNA Code...Proof of a Divine Creator?

Wolrab said:
I printed up the sequence from above and taped it to a Ouija board. It worked just as well as a Ouija board, but you have to limit your questions to:
What was my favorite childhood game? TAG
What was Ethan Hawke"s best film? GATTACA
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More versatile than you might think, actually:


SweatyYeti said:
The subject of this thread is whether the DNA molecules, in a living cell, function as a Code....in the same way that the Binary Code in a computer functions....
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GAGA


SweatyYeti said:
Here are samples of DNA Code and Binary Code sequences...looking quite similar...
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CACA




TATA​
 
SweatyYeti said:
Any Code requires a Code-Maker....a Designer
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Why?

SweatyYeti said:
for it to be able to function, and transfer meaningful information.
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What is "meaningful information", and how can DNA be said to transfer it?

SweatyYeti said:
Here is a link to an article, written by a computer programmer, in which he explains the similarities he sees, between the two Codes...

http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/
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I'm a computer scientist and programmer, and most of the comparisons this guy makes are meaningless and paper thin.
 
marplots said:
The problem with the comparison revolves around meaning.

A pattern that is read 'out of order' isn't random at all.

But it doesn't capture the meaning intended by the original programmer (or designer).
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Thanks for the thoughtful response, marplots.

But, I disagree with this statement of yours...

A pattern that is read 'out of order' isn't random at all.
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Relating the point to Binary Code, in a computer....the 'meaning (pattern) you intended'....(and your computer en-coded)...when you typed your post was re-produced precisely on the 'other end', only because a computer de-coded it in the same 'order'...or, in the proper groupings.

If my computer read the 'string of binary digits' that your computer produced 'out of order'...(in improper groups)....the result would be random light-and-dark spots on my computer screen.
There would be NO 'Order' and 'Meaning' to the resultant "pattern"....it would have, in fact, no 'ordered pattern' to it at all....it would be nothing more than video noise.
(Similar to what a tv screen shows, when tuned to an inactive channel.)


This point comes down to 'Intelligent, Directed, Ordered Processes' vs. 'Non-Directed, Random Processes'.

That is the key difference between a 'Living System' and a 'Non-Living System'.


And that's what the book "What Is Life" deals with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life?


One quote from the Wikipedia article...

The main principle involved with "order-from-disorder" is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, according to which entropy (disorder)only increases.
Schrödinger explains that living matter evades the decay (increasing disorder) to thermodynamical equilibrium by feeding on negative entropy.
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And, from another article about the book...

http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/04/erwin.html


The research lead that Crick got by doing so was how a small set of repeating elements (like 2, or 4) could give rise to a large number of combinatorial products (almost unlimited), a mathematical relationship that Schrödinger illustrated using the Morse Code,
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From another book....covering a related topic...(quantum physics)...

http://www.icpress.co.uk/physics/p581.html


The living cell is an information replicating and processing system that is replete with naturally-evolved nanomachines, which at some level require a quantum mechanical description.
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marplots wrote:

Without knowing ahead of time, I cannot say whether a sequence of binary digits has 'meaning' or not.
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It's not simply a question of some subjective Meaning....it's also a question of a non-subjective 'Order'.
These two concepts are closely related.....'Order' and 'Meaning' follow each other, very closely.....with regards to Living Systems/Beings.

Living Beings tend to have a high-degree of Order to their forms.


It is no good to say that what DNA seems to be doing is what is intended, no more than you could know whether this next sequence is random and only appears meaningful or is actually meaningful: 3,6,9, 12
Is that some mathematical sequence?

The start of my phone number?
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I agree with what you're saying....that 'Meaning' is a subjective thing...a living being attaches/applies meaning to a set of numbers.

But again....it's analagous to the computer...'Meaningful Order' vs. 'Random Disorder'.

As an example of how those two concepts are linked...(in Living Beings)....if we were to type messages back-and-forth to each other, but instead of doing so with intentional meaning, we typed blindfolded...and, to boot, using keyboards with an unknown layout of keys....we would be typing a completely random sequence of letters, in our posts.....(would we not?)

That being the case....our posts would then have NO MEANING....(a subjective concept)....and, in addition to that....the posts would also have decidely LESS 'ORDER'...(a non-subjective concept)...to them.
There wouldn't be the same amount of repeating letter combinations...(non-subjective Order)...since we wouldn't be able to copy-and-paste a previous post, and neither would the same 'words' be constantly reappearing, every so often.

A quick example.....of Order following Intentional Meaning...

Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...


See the connection between the two? :)

What were the odds that those letters would have repeated themselves in such a precise Order...and Pattern....without any intentional meaning behind the typing of those letters. If I was typing blindfolded...and randomly...the odds would have been astronomically against it occuring.


Likewise.....if DNA wasn't doing something 'meaningful'...as in something a Creator 'intended'....there would likely not be this high degree of 'Order', in it's form...


Bird2.jpg



....as there isn't...in 'non-living' systems...such as a rocks...


Boulderfield1.jpg




It's a good question though, worth considering. But like many good questions, the easy answer is probably the wrong one. You have to look deeper.
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It sure is! :)
 
DNA isn't a code, it isn't an abstraction for something, it is the something. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between the DNA and the organism it expresses (i.e. you can't look at a banana and derive the DNA). DNA doesn't say "build an arm", it says "make this chemical now", and the elaborate manufacturing of different chemicals by various cells ends up as a living organism.

DNA is designed, it's designed by natural selection. To some that may appear to be intelligent, in the same way that someone who doesn't understand physics may think a snowflake appears designed by an intelligent agent.
 
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Strangely, this bit of your post just leapt off the page at me.


SweatyYeti said:
<snip>

As an example of how those two concepts are linked...(in Living Beings)....if we were to type messages back-and-forth to each other, but instead of doing so with intentional meaning, we typed blindfolded...and, to boot, using keyboards with an unknown layout of keys....we would be typing a completely random sequence of letters, in our posts.....(would we not?)

That being the case....our posts would then have NO MEANING....

<snip>
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What are the chances of that?
 
I have a lot to say on this, but I need to get a few clarifications out of the way:

1. Please define "code"
2. Tell me what you mean by "order", without using a definition that requires purpose, and can be analyzed objectively.
 
I'm no scientist but my impression of life is that it came via a process of trial and error from non living organic matter. It started as simple self replicating molecules and progressed over a period of billions of years into what we see today. If Goddidit the biological lifeforms we see today would be better designed life would be longer and more comfortable..
 
Relating the point to Binary Code, in a computer....the 'meaning (pattern) you intended'....(and your computer en-coded)...when you typed your post was re-produced precisely on the 'other end', only because a computer de-coded it in the same 'order'...or, in the proper groupings.
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That applies to DNA how exactly? No proof by repeated assertion, please.
 
What were the odds that those letters would have repeated themselves in such a precise Order...and Pattern....without any intentional meaning behind the typing of those letters. If I was typing blindfolded...and randomly...the odds would have been astronomically against it occuring.
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That argument is a non-starter. Order emerges from disorder all the time from known chemical and physical processes.
 
Actually, if you randomly attach the 'letters' of RNA (the generally accepted precursor of both DNA and proteins) you end up with functional structures on a surprisingly regular basis.
In fact, this property of RNA molecules has started a whole new industry where people take something, make random RNA and select for function. Given the ease with which we can do this in the lab I'd say the 'blind typing' analog is a perfect example of 'did not do the research'
 
SweatyYeti said:
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...
Order following Intentional Meaning...


See the connection between the two? :)

What were the odds that those letters would have repeated themselves in such a precise Order...and Pattern....without any intentional meaning behind the typing of those letters. If I was typing blindfolded...and randomly...the odds would have been astronomically against it occuring.


Likewise.....if DNA wasn't doing something 'meaningful'...as in something a Creator 'intended'....there would likely not be this high degree of 'Order', in it's form...


[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/MiscStuff/Bird2.jpg[/qimg]


....as there isn't...in 'non-living' systems...such as a rocks...


[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/MiscStuff/Boulderfield1.jpg[/qimg]
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This is a bad comparison. Organisms with DNA evolve. Posts on an internet forum do not.

Imagine an algorithm which takes in a post, creates mutated versions by adding characters, deleting characters, or changing one character to another, and then keeps only the post that is the most similar to the "precise Order...and Pattern" you gave above. An algorithm like this would easily be capable of generating the 'Order' you requested, no creator with intention required.
 
Snowflakes look created, therefore there must be a creator. Would you agree Sweati Yeti?
 
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