Did We Need to Nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[dudalb]

The OP hasn't been back since the original post. You might as well argue with your refrigerator.

Yeah, another "Democrats are evil" rant from the OP.
BTW he is a devout believer that "FDR let Pearl Harbor Happen" BS.

 

[dudalb]

Why didn't they surrender after Hiroshima?

Because the Militariest who were de facto in charge of Japan convinced themselves that the bomb was a one off,the US did not have anymore,and the invasion would still happen. Their whole strategy was that the invasion of Kyushu would be so bloody the US would agree to a negotiated peace. The chances of that, of course, were next to zero.

 

[Elagabalus]

Given the OP's political views, I suspect if a Republican had won in 1944 and had given the order to drop the bomb,the OP would be posting how necessary and right it was.

I was about to say that the bombings were necessary because Truman promised FDR to carry out FDR's Agenda 21.

Alternate snark:
Considering how many people FDR murdered during the war what's another 250,000 service men killed in action during the conquest of Japan?

 

[ddt]

U-234^WP

That's a very rare Uranium isotope (only 55 PPM in nature).

ETA: seriously, the principal source of uranium for the Manhattan Project was the Belgian Congo:

The United States used Shinkolobwe's uranium resources to supply the Manhattan Project to construct the atomic bomb in World War II. Edgar Sengier, then director of Union Minière du Haut Katanga, had stockpiled 1,200 tonnes of uranium ore in a warehouse on Staten Island, New York. This ore and an additional 3,000 tonnes of ore stored above-ground at the mine was purchased by Colonel Ken Nichols for use in the project.

 

[dudalb]

Also amusing that someone as far to the right as bobtaftfan cites Gar Alperovitz, who swings as far to the left as the OP does to the right...and Alperovitz's "hard left" opinions defiantly carry over into him as a historian.

 

[Border Reiver]

The OP hasn't been back since the original post. You might as well argue with your refrigerator.

With the OP done we can still have nice discussion.

We did in his Custer thread last year.

 

[Jules Galen]

Atomic Bomb = No Glory

I'm beginning to believe that the reason that the Japanese surrendered was because they (the Leaders) thought of dying in Nuclear blasts while huddled in bunkers was just too humiliating for them to contemplate. I mean, imagine if the US really did have as many bombs as Truman had threatened - and imagine this from the Japanese-Militiristic point-of-view that figured that death in battle was the most honorable way to die. Given this assumption about "Honorable Death"...what less honorable death could there be than being nuked like a herd of sheep? How would that look in the history books? Don't ya' think the Japanese might earn the distinction of being the dumbest people to ever inhabit the planet - had they chosen the path of nuclear anihilation?

I could be wrong.

 

[dudalb]

With the OP done we can still have nice discussion.

We did in his Custer thread last year.

Same thing with his Pearl Harbor threads.

 

[SpitfireIX]

That's a very rare Uranium isotope (only 55 PPM in nature).

Cute.

ETA: seriously, the principal source of uranium for the Manhattan Project was the Belgian Congo:

I intended my response as an answer to Dr.Sid's question as to where Loss Leader got the idea that half the nuclear material for the first few bombs was "stolen from the Germans." I didn't mean to imply that I take the claim at face value.

 

[crescent]

Atomic Bomb = No Glory

I'm beginning to believe that the reason that the Japanese surrendered was because they (the Leaders) thought of dying in Nuclear blasts while huddled in bunkers was just too humiliating for them to contemplate. I mean, imagine if the US really did have as many bombs as Truman had threatened - and imagine this from the Japanese-Militiristic point-of-view that figured that death in battle was the most honorable way to die. Given this assumption about "Honorable Death"...what less honorable death could there be than being nuked like a herd of sheep? How would that look in the history books? Don't ya' think the Japanese might earn the distinction of being the dumbest people to ever inhabit the planet - had they chosen the path of nuclear anihilation?

I could be wrong.

I imagine a lot of things factored into the decision - but I have thought before that what you describe might have been part of it. They thought of themselves as sharks, but then realized that they had become fish in a barrel.

 

[smartcooky]

The suggestion that the fissionable material for the two bombs came from uranium stolen from Germany is a complete load of old cobblers.

Little Boy (the Hiroshima bomb) contained 64kg of fissionable material. The 500 kg of uranium oxide they took from U234 would have refined down to about 3.5kg of fissionable material... less han 8% of the material used.

Of course, Fat Boy (the Nagasaki bomb) used plutonium... AFAIK, no-one else in the world had that at the time.

 

[Noztradamus]

The USA did not need nuclear weapons to bomb Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki since the USA could have bombed these cities in the same way that the USA bombed several other Japanese cities.

As Emperor Hirohito said in the subtext of his speech it was the changed situation of one bomb: one city, that created the opportunity to surrender without losing face.

 

[Puppycow]

The USA did not need nuclear weapons to bomb Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki since the USA could have bombed these cities in the same way that the USA bombed several other Japanese cities.

Resulting in a comparable amount of death and destruction no doubt, although not as much "shock and awe" fear factor. Would conventional bombings of those cities have resulted in a quick Japanese surrender though? (Also would have taken more sorties and planes, and additional risk to those).


If there's anyone here who likes podcasts, you might want to check out the latest episode of Hardcore History, which covers this part of history, from the Trinity test through the Cuban Missile crisis. It is one of the best podcasts out there in my opinion.

http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-59-the-destroyer-of-worlds/

 

[kookbreaker]

Atomic Bomb = No Glory

I'm beginning to believe that the reason that the Japanese surrendered was because they (the Leaders) thought of dying in Nuclear blasts while huddled in bunkers was just too humiliating for them to contemplate. I mean, imagine if the US really did have as many bombs as Truman had threatened - and imagine this from the Japanese-Militiristic point-of-view that figured that death in battle was the most honorable way to die. Given this assumption about "Honorable Death"...what less honorable death could there be than being nuked like a herd of sheep? How would that look in the history books? Don't ya' think the Japanese might earn the distinction of being the dumbest people to ever inhabit the planet - had they chosen the path of nuclear anihilation?

I could be wrong.

Iirc, the military leaders on the war council voted to continue fighting. The civilian ones voted for surrender. The emporer broke the tie.

The average citizen was a little less keen about dying in a blaze of glory.

 

[Hans]

Trivia question: When would the third weapon have been ready and had they allocated a target for it?


Answering my own question

Archival records show a third bomb was under assembly at Tinian in the Mariana Islands where the Enola Gay and Bockscar had flown from, with the main plutonium core about to be shipped from the U.S.

Although some aircrew saw “Tokyo Joe” chalked on the bomb’s casing, it was said to be destined for Kokura, the original target for the second bomb, and named “Fat Boy.”

A transcript of a top-level call between two military experts on August 13 reveals details of this “third shot.” It also confirmed that a vast production line of about 12 other atomic bombs was being readied for additional continuous strikes against other key targets.

It was agreed this next bomb would be available to be dropped on August 19, with a schedule of further bombs available throughout September and October.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/14/u-s-planned-to-drop-12-atomic-bombs-on-japan.html

 

[theprestige]

What happened to Loss Leader? I really wanted to hear more about his racialist theory of the war in the Pacific, and of his unorthodox views on fissile material sourcing and atomic bomb manufacturing in the 1940s.

 

[Belz...]

Trivia question: When would the third weapon have been ready and had they allocated a target for it?


Answering my own question



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/14/u-s-planned-to-drop-12-atomic-bombs-on-japan.html

So my mother-in-law dodged a nuke twice (she was living in Kokura at the time)!

 

[smartcooky]

So my mother-in-law dodged a nuke twice (she was living in Kokura at the time)!

Perhaps and perhaps not.

The rationale behind atomic bomb target selection was that they picked cities from a list of those that had not been previously firebombed under General Curtis LeMay's bombing campaign because, among other reasons, the damage caused by the bomb would be easier to asses. On that short list was Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Kokura, Niigata, Kyoto, Sapporo and Saitama.

There is some suggestion that the target might have been Tokyo but I agree with Hans that Kokura seems like the most likely to have been next cab off the rank. It was to have been the target of the second bomb, but bad weather (and perhaps other things) caused Bockscar to divert to the secondary target... Nagasaki

Interesting story about it here

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/22/luck-kokura/

 

[Belz...]

Perhaps and perhaps not.

The rationale behind atomic bomb target selection was that they picked cities from a list of those that had not been previously firebombed under General Curtis LeMay's bombing campaign because, among other reasons, the damage caused by the bomb would be easier to asses. On that short list was Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Kokura, Niigata, Kyoto, Sapporo and Saitama.

I read that Kyoto was removed from the list at the behest of a US government official who knew of its cultural importance. If so, good call. Kyoto is astounding.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It was utterly unnecessary for making Japan surrender.

The two nukes were not even particularly devastating compared to the proceeding firebombing campaigns.

It was a clear case of having a new toy and wanting to use it.


With decades of hindsight, was it good to have demonstrated the power of these weapons?
Quite possibly.