Did Putin orchestrate the Odessa "Massacre"?

[catsmate]

It's always the same with you, isn't it?

The videos show a man firing on a building. So? Does that prove any of the many assertions that you and others have made? It doesn't show who started the fire, and it doesn't cast any light on the conspiracy theory you are trying to build regarding Andriy Parubiy.

As I said, get a new hobby. You are dreadful at this one, and it's pretty disgusting to watch.

Well said.

 

[carlitos]

RT has the same problem with accuracy that some posters here have with their writing.

Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape


New video has emerged online which shows a man shooting at

The "evidence" at that link that folks had made handprints on the wall trying to escape while the walls "melted" was pathetic as well. Apparently, in Ukraine, "melted" drywall is green and white and perfectly straight and level.

 

[Caustic Logic]

It's always the same with you, isn't it?

The videos show a man firing on a building. So? Does that prove any of the many assertions that you and others have made?

The assertion I was making that was supposed to be supported by that article is ... Mikola is clearly shooting his gun at the building as it burns and phoning in false reports.

Separtely, not shown here, we know that's Mikola Volvkov. We know he's one of Parubiy's deputies. We know he was arrested - innocent of murdering hiding activists, police said, but guilty of the obvious actions on video (exact charges unclear) and his Fascist friends demand his release (see here, Ukrainian).

Separtely, not shown here, thugs storm inside the building, smash down doors, drag off one woman who's begging them to stop, and fire breaks out at different spots while they're inside. A pregnant-looking woman was stangled to death and left un-burnt in one office with a wooden club and orange construction helmet left behind. Look it up.

Carlitos: Good catch with one "lie." What I see is radicals - one shooting, the others not stopping him, approving. But yeah, only one shown shooting, here.

There's another photo I've seen of two guys, one shooting a pistol, one a shotgun or rifle, also up to the windows. It's a photo though so you can see if they're shooting or posing.

The wall isn't melting, true. But maybe the paint, which looks smeared. I'm sure you think it's faked for dramatic effect. It could be. There's a lot more that can't be fake. So, don't think this is the only thing you need to point to to make your fake massacre argument.


Anyone think Putin was behind this fake massacre?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Well said.

The core point is plain stupid. You agree with him that if a "for example" source, for one point in abroad argument, only contains supports for that one point and not everything else ... it's a fail? You think every article should contain all points of any argument anyone might make with it?

This is a dumber than average comment even for Uke2se.

And it wasn't well-said either. It well reflected your disgustingly dismissive attitude.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The photo of two shooters I mentioned is here. That's the same place. All told, at least three radical seen shooting up, but not all in that one pack of lies RT article that might as well have been written and video-faked by Stalin himself.

There is an aspect to both Mikola's shooting video and this photo that could be used to argue in his/their favor. But I won't explain it myself. I'll see if anyone from the corporate-media vegetable patch can figure it out themselves. If so, they can see the counter-argument I have ready. I don't think that'll happen.

As for Mikola's leg injury, he's seen in another video, running fine at that point and not shooting. 0:50, 1:20. (clues there - warning, some blood and disturbing stuff, mainly from jumpers)

23:06, you can see the "Ukrainian Rally" members showing their grief at these tragic events, as the bloodied victims are carried by. That's a serious fire - I think it could easily melt most paints/wall coatings, if they're of the type that melt.

In this photo you can see a bit of the pride the rally took in its work.

ETA: Wolfsangel, Celtic Cross, the C in C-14 (David Lane ref) ... but no outright swastika. Because as the Svoboda guys say, they're not Nazis.

Does this last finally argue that Putin set this up to make the right-wingers look bad? This would be a pretty nuanced and realistic way to do it.

 

[uke2se]

snipped BS

That's right. The videos that you selected as evidence does nothing to demonstrate any assertions about the events you have made. As usual you have no concept of chain of evidence, or even evidence analysis - it's Youtube all the way down. Your posts are almost exactly like that of a twoofer - simply switch the subject matter.

To summarize, you have presented two videos of a guy first shooting out of frame (you claim him to be shooting at a burning building) and then speaking on a cell phone (you claim he's saying he's unarmed and wounded.) You claim he's lying because a) you saw him fire a gun in another video and b) you can't see any wound. Well, b) is just stupid, and as for a), how do you know the two videos are closely linked in time?

 

[Border Reiver]

Mr. Logic, relying on videos and still photos where you have no way of telling if they have been modified is a fairly unreliable way of proving that a third party orchestrated anything.

We could, for instance, make the claim that you had orchestrated the entire thing and that would equally as logical.

If you wish to demonstrate that Putin orchestrated the events in Odessa to further destabilize the Ukraine, that the events were orchestrated by the present Ukrainian gov't to ensure that they got into and retain power, that "The West" orchestrated the events or even that perhaps it is symptomatic of a transitional power shift unrelated to foriegn intervention - you will need much more evidence than merely videos from Youtube to prove your point.

If you truly want to prove any of the above, or simply want to find out what is behind the images then you need to dig a lot deeper - accounting for the bias of whatever party produced the evidence you're looking at, regardless of whether it matches your present presumption or not.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Mr. Logic, relying on videos and still photos where you have no way of telling if they have been modified is a fairly unreliable way of proving that a third party orchestrated anything.

Another vote for fake, then?

If you wish to demonstrate that Putin orchestrated the events in Odessa to further destabilize the Ukraine...

I don't. Some people do though. Go tell them what they need to do. They don'y even have images to point to, just words (that contradict the images) for the credulous.

 

[Caustic Logic]

snipped in retaliation

first part, fail. We were getting specific, an improper plural is all that was found by way of lies. We're supposed to tune out Russia media because it's all probably lies. Example 1 - refutes that advice.

ETA: I'll let someone else pick sample 2 if they want.

second part, semi-valid questions. We don't know all the details. Maybe he was unarmed and shot at first, but later got armed and un-shot. Whatever works, right? I must be lying or whatever. Somehow. Don't take a break on that, your grinding me down finally!

At least you looked a little bit. And you didn't call fake. Huh.

 

[Border Reiver]

Another vote for fake, then?

No - a reminder that you can't tell, and that it is dangerous to make assumptions based on flawed data.

 

[Caustic Logic]

No - a reminder that you can't tell, and that it is dangerous to make assumptions based on flawed data.

Yeah, flawed data ... like when we went o war in Iraq.

Now I don't command any Army, so I get a bit more leeway I hope. But there are different kinds of data here. I see you criticizing video. Fair enough. But ...

If a video that's verifiably from the same scene as all other videos, same-looking crowd, weather, matching the known building, etc...

clashes with what one of the pogrom event organizers is saying about it, with just words ...

...without saying that has or hasn't happened, just on principle, what should one do?

(I'm not fully there at "verifying" this stuff yet, but it seems to all be lining up with no signs of fakery or insertion yet - and IMO it does contradict badly what Mikola's boss says, in English, and what RT says Mikola says in Ukrainian)