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Did Jesus really exist?

DOC said:
We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.
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Sorry but I find myself seriously disagreeing with this statement

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Originally Posted by DOC

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.


MG1962 said:
Sorry but I find myself seriously disagreeing with this statement

[qimg]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:qE9tpV-Gr_A0nM:http://www.immediart.com/catalog/images[/qimg]
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According to Wiki's article on the Big Bang:

"Little is known about the earliest moments of the universe's history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
 
DOC said:
Originally Posted by DOC

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.




According to Wiki's article on the Big Bang:

"Little is known about the earliest moments of the universe's history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
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Thats not the statement you made - we do understand the concept of matter and energy being interchangeable. One advantage astronmy has is the evidence never goes away - We can currently see back through time for a significant fraction of the history of our universe. We might not know what happened in the first thirty seconds - but the next 13 billion years or so are reasonably nutted out
 
DOC said:
We have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have that one cell living organisms evolved over time from non-living chemicals.

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.

Here are two sites that talk about evidence for the resurrection:

http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_troc/

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
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If you accept that as evidence don't you also have to accept that dozens of other messiahs have risen? For that matter, don't you have to accept that Qui-Gon Jinn became one with the force?
 
DOC said:
We have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have that one cell living organisms evolved over time from non-living chemicals.
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We have as much evidence that Jesus rose from the dead as we have evidence that Bodhidharma crossed a river standing on a floating leaf.
 
Ethan Thane Athen said:
Er no. They celebrated a mid-Winter festival that existed long before they were introduced to christianity and that the church completely failed to wipe-out so claimed as their own.
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Actually I rather doubt that. I posted a challenge to a formal debate on the "pagan origins of Christmas" on the dawkins forum, and in the ensuing discussion go in to some detail in my objections -
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31306

For an even better example of this see Easter. Ressurrection of Christ? Er no, Spring festival to the pagan goddess of Spring called, wait for it, Eostre. And what was the symbol of this goddess of rebirth I hear you ask. Funnily enough, an egg.
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Nope, I know why you think so, but not likely I think. In fact we have bugger all evidence for Eostre that I can find, and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion it was a case of Bede citing a folk etymology, or making stuff up in line with his belief that the Church had sympathetically adopted pagan customs where possible. Modern scholars seem to favour a derivation from the root alba, via the Gothic as I recall.

Easter quite clearly derives it's date from the Jewish festival of Passover, as indeed its name in almost all non-English languages attests linguistically.
I put these commonly believed claims up there with "mithras was a forerunner of Jesus" etc - ie. not credible.


If anyone is really bored I surveyed the evidence for a Historical Jesus outside the Bible in this thread -
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14784
However as I recall jjramsay is a member of the JREF forum so you hardly need me to discuss this - my knowledge pales in comparison I think.

cj x
 
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DOC said:
We have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have that one cell living organisms evolved over time from non-living chemicals.

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.

Here are two sites that talk about evidence for the resurrection:

http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_troc/

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
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So your sources are a creationist site that uses the bible to prove the bible is true, and some douche who pretty much says the same exact thing? Ever hear of the fallacy of circular logic? Your premises, the validity of the biblical account, cannot be the same as the conclusion you're trying to prove.

Using the bible as a source only proves one thing: that the bible has an opinion. Using the bible to prove that Jesus was resurrected is like using DC Comics to prove that Superman was resurrected, the Matrix movies to prove that Neo came back to life after being killed, or episodes of South Park to prove that Kenny McCormick rose from the dead.

You can consider those two sites, which I have seen you post dozens of times, to have been effectively debunked. Otherwise you must lend equal credence to all other fictional messiahs including the ones I mentioned above, not just Jesus.
 
DOC said:
Originally Posted by DOC

We also have more evidence that Jesus rose from the dead than we have evidence that some strange energy somehow turned into all the mass that makes up 10 billion trillion stars.


According to Wiki's article on the Big Bang:

"Little is known about the earliest moments of the universe's history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
Click to expand...

We have very strong evidence that Randi returned from the dead...hmmmmmmm

One of the beauties of cosmology is the knowledge of the cosmic background radiation that permeates space. This link and picture shows the universe at about 400,000 years of age. As a result, we know what has happened over most of the last 13.7 billion years. Physics models keep getting closer and the science gaps keep getting filled in--as the models really don't know only the first fraction of a second. After that, they provide reasonable results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

The picture's dark areas line up perfectly with the areas of superclusters of galaxies in the universe.

Now, if the bible and other creationist literature described the development and age of the universe anywhere close to modern astronomy and cosmology, I would agree with you about there being a creator--assuming other issues in the bible were found true....

But instead we had the earth as the center of the universe and the church arresting galileo and locking him up when he was correct. The church did appologize to him in 1995 or so. We also had comets as portents of doom etc...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/deepimpact/media/f_ancient.html

I feel we can say that more errors keep occuring with creation theory as the historical gaps in evolution keep getting filled in.

glenn
 
Dream on. You can get a tax free religious status if you worship a Department store manniken.

Well if thats the case lets get one dress it as my name sake Xenu and start something to rival the sicentologists!
 
A good source book is The Jesus Mysteries, authored by two British archeologists named Freke and Gandy. You can find it on Amazon. They are experts on the languages and cultures of the ancient world, and went to original sources for references to Jesus and to the stories and quotes attributed to him. Their scholarship is rigorous, and about a third of the book is references and footnotes. What they found surprised even them: all of the Jesus stories (born of a virgin, sermon on the mount, riding a donkey to town, water to wine, etc.) existed well before the Jesus myth, and none of the dozen or more contemporary historians of his time (including the Romans, who kept records of their crucifixions) mentions anyone recognizable as Jesus. Check it out. But also ask, who cares?
Even if the man did exist, he left no writings of his own, so we can't read any reliable account of whatever he may have said.
 
conadera said:
A good source book is The Jesus Mysteries, authored by two British archeologists named Freke and Gandy. You can find it on Amazon. They are experts on the languages and cultures of the ancient world, and went to original sources for references to Jesus and to the stories and quotes attributed to him. Their scholarship is rigorous, and about a third of the book is references and footnotes. What they found surprised even them: all of the Jesus stories (born of a virgin, sermon on the mount, riding a donkey to town, water to wine, etc.) existed well before the Jesus myth, and none of the dozen or more contemporary historians of his time (including the Romans, who kept records of their crucifixions) mentions anyone recognizable as Jesus. .
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Whether or not the Romans kept records of their crucifixions, none survive. Find me a official Roman Report of a crucifixion anywhere in the period 30-150CE anywhere in the Empire. Simple enough challenge! Sure you can find secondary references - lots of people were crucified - but even they are surprisingly rare.

Freke and Gandy do indeed have footnotes, following up which is often remarkably revealing. Their whole idea is terribly flawed to my mind, and I have spent a year now in dedicated research of the alleged pagan parallels, and finding them to be almost all rot. However don't trust me, trust skepticwiki on Freke & Gandy's book -unfortunately the site is down so I can't link to it.

cj x
 
DOC said:
These two authors would disagree
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Oh, dear. Let's Check the veracity of thier claims...

DOC said:
http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_troc/
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The title of this paper: "The Resurrection of Christ - The Best-Proved Fact in History"

I don't think we have to do much to know that this is complete and utter nonsense. but let's just check to see what is given as evidence for the "best-proved fact in history"

1.) Empty Tomb
2.) Witnesses
Unfortunately, all of this is hearsay evidence since it was reported to us in the bible which was written decades after the fact.

So, the best-proved fact in history wouldn't be enough to make a conviction in trial. Compare this to evidence we have for nearly ANYTHING else known about history (e.g., the spanish inquisition, the crusaudes, the slaughter of the Incans and Astecs) and you will see how horribly wrong this author(Henry Morris) is.

Obviously, the author was engaging in hyperbole as a method of persuasion. What someone would do to ellicit an emotional response and not a rational one. When trying to present a rational argument, such language works only to weaken the claim and expose the author as a man with an agenda with no consideration for truth and accuracy.

Indeed, as a result of reading this article, I would never trust Henry Morris as a source of information. I think after reading my clear analysis of Dr. Morris' paper, anyone who would willingly continue to use Henry Morris as a source of information would be exposed as a person with no intellectual integrity or honesty.
 
conadera said:
A good source book is The Jesus Mysteries, authored by two British archeologists named Freke and Gandy. You can find it on Amazon. They are experts on the languages and cultures of the ancient world, and went to original sources for references to Jesus and to the stories and quotes attributed to him. Their scholarship is rigorous, and about a third of the book is references and footnotes. What they found surprised even them: all of the Jesus stories (born of a virgin, sermon on the mount, riding a donkey to town, water to wine, etc.) existed well before the Jesus myth, and none of the dozen or more contemporary historians of his time (including the Romans, who kept records of their crucifixions) mentions anyone recognizable as Jesus. Check it out. But also ask, who cares?
Even if the man did exist, he left no writings of his own, so we can't read any reliable account of whatever he may have said.
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Sounds like and excellent book...putting a review up on the forum would be a good idea.

glenn
 
plumjam said:
Well,.. obviously Jesus never existed at all.

Instead it was all a dastardly conspiracy by some people for some reason that some people might know about or understand, but the rest of humanity would be rightly skeptical about.
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No, it was no conspiracy, as the book by Schonfield claims. [ The Passover Plot]
But it was not history either. It was pure and simple a collection of legends, myths and hearsay. If some trouble maker who caused controversy really did exist in those days, it was not the Jesus that is in the 4 gospels. It probably was some fire and brimstone rabbi, who talked himself into being executed by the Romans for stirring the Jews to rebellion.
:cool:
 
cj.23 said:
Whether or not the Romans kept records of their crucifixions, none survive. Find me a official Roman Report of a crucifixion anywhere in the period 30-150CE anywhere in the Empire. Simple enough challenge! Sure you can find secondary references - lots of people were crucified - but even they are surprisingly rare.

Freke and Gandy do indeed have footnotes, following up which is often remarkably revealing. Their whole idea is terribly flawed to my mind, and I have spent a year now in dedicated research of the alleged pagan parallels, and finding them to be almost all rot. However don't trust me, trust skepticwiki on Freke & Gandy's book -unfortunately the site is down so I can't link to it.

cj x
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Your probably right about the records the Romans kept about their executions, they surely would not keep records of common thieves, stirrers and leaders of rebellion. But Jesus was no ordinary thief or trouble maker, he was supposed to have resucitated on the 3rd day. Surely they would have written something down about such an event? I have also researched the claims of ''The Jesus Mysteries" and I don't find as you have found, ''rot'' in the parallels. Freke & Gandy are serious researchers.
It all boils down to what kind of sources you study. I try to find neutral sources who study the facts not been influenced by their beliefs.
 
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