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Did Jesus really exist?

My question would be:
How common was the name "Jesus" at the time?
How many crazy radical cult leaders/political dissidents existed and were executed during that time period?
How many of those were named Jesus?
 
Zarathustra said:
My question would be:
How common was the name "Jesus" at the time?
How many crazy radical cult leaders/political dissidents existed and were executed during that time period?
How many of those were named Jesus?
Click to expand...

Well, since "Jesus" is the English form of a Latinization of "Yeshua", which itself is the Hebrew form of the more common "Joshua"...
How popular do you think "Joshua" was amongst the Jews?

How many crazy cult leaders/political dissidents exist today? 50 years ago? 100 years ago? I think you'll find a fairly constant pro capita value.
 
I used to be mildly intrigued by the fact that Jesus was known as "Jesus,
son of the father", which in [Latinized] Hebrew is "Jesus Barabbas", which is
also the name of the fellow [allegedly] freed by Pilate. Just a common name,
or a mixup in the stories? :confused:

"Welease Bwian!"
 
Jesus is almost certainly is entirely mythological. Mark was written sometime in 70 C.E., and the other gospels in the next twenty years were based off that writing, leaving roughly a forty year gap where no gospels were written about the life of Jesus. "But wait," a Christian might say, "Paul wrote his letters as early as 60 C.E." Yes, but nowhere in any of Paul's writing does he refer to Jesus having had a life in the physical realm. His Virgin Birth, miraculous healings and manifestations of divine power, confrontation with the money lenders, trial, everything appears first in the gospels which are all mutually contradictory and which conflict with the Pauline Christianity that focused on Jesus's status as a powerful being in some purely mythical realm. His symbolic death and resurrection was of spiritual meaning and Paul wrote passionately about that (though many letters attributed to him are probably not his) but he never mentions Jesus's life.

The mythical status of a being none the less worthy of praise and worship wasn't unusual for the period any more than virgin birth claims. Followers of Divius Julius, Julius Caesar, were running around claiming he had a virgin birth and was a messiah while early Christians were making the same claims about Jesus, and the same claims were made of Alexander the Great, Dionysus, Osiris, and numerous other figures, either entirely mythological or historical.

Are there any reputable historical records? No. Josephus wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the gospels were written, and Josephus was born after the alleged crucifixion in any case. At best, he would have had access to hearsay. The other authors can be dismissed on the same grounds in not making verifiable claims, not having been alive at the time of the alleged events, and often only make passing mention of Christians rather than any historical Jesus figure.

All this is very strange when you consider how unusual the events of Jesus's life are. I'm not talking about the miraculous events, miraculous claims are a dime a dozen. The really unusual bits of the story involve things that would have been well known, well remembered, well documented, but are unverified. Even the historians, like Josephus, who railed against the hated Herod never accused him of putting all the babes in any town to the sword. There is no record of a census around 1 C.E. requiring men to report to their home towns, or any census ever undertaken at any time by the Romans or their client states ever requiring such a burden. There is no record of the temple leaders of Jerusalem (rabbi wasn't a term used for about another century or more) meeting on Passover to conspire to murder someone in defiance of their own traditions, nor is there evidence that a Roman governor appealed to the populace at large and at their request released a known murderer. Philo Judaea and Pliny the Elder, two of the greatest historians of antiquity lived during the time Jesus was alleged to have lived, and the gospels consistently paint a picture of Jesus as so famous that he's hounded by multitudes wherever he goes, yet not a single contemporary mentions him.

If the ordinary historical parts of Jesus's life are entirely unverified, and the miraculous parts conveniently leave no evidence and are indistinguishable from the miracles attributed to people in the ancient world we also disregard, I don't see any shred of evidence for a historical Jesus.
 
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Most mythical heroes were based on people who actually lived. Just as there were likely historical people who served as the basis for the Heracles or Mithras legends, there's a chance the same was true for Jesus. Obviously the Jesus of the New Testament did not exist, otherwise there would have been innumerable accounts of his miraculous life. However I think it's possible for there to have been a man named Jesus whom the myths and legends were written around.

Rather than copy my previous post in the "Absence of Evidence" thread, here's the topic I started on Ain't No God a while back:
http://aintnogod.com/atheist/index.php/topic,1323.0.html

The argument that he existed is inductive, true, since there is no direct historical or forensic evidence of his life, however I still think there could have been a real Jesus. Many of the historians mentioned earlier talked about Christians, not Jesus himself, and no skeptic is denying the existence of Christians. The ones that do mention Jesus were not written during his lifetime, and they describe him simply as a poor cult leader who got himself crucified.

Besides, if Jesus existed, then he would have been a rabbi, and as a rabbi he most likely would have married and had children in accordance with Jewish customs. Christians however will go to great lengths to deny that this ever happened, because it was not in the gospels. In that case, Jesus was most likely gay. :D
 
DOC said:
These non-Christian sources mentioned Christ.

* 1.3.1 Josephus
* 1.3.2 Tacitus
* 1.3.3 Suetonius

Josephus mentioned Him twice. There is some debate about one mentioning but a second mentioning of Christ as the brother{cousin} of James the Just is considered authentic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Earliest_known_sources.


Also you have to wonder what caused these events in the first century:

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Mark was beaten to death.
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs
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''There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus.
The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon Earth, and died to give his work it's final cosecration, never had any existence. This image has not been destroyed from without, it has fallen to pieces, cleft and disintegrated by the concrete historical problems which have surfaced one after the other.''

~Albert Schweitzer~ The Quest of the Historical Jesus. [end quote.]

Every one of the writers of that particular time frame, were writing hearsay. Not one ever met or spoke to Jesus. Granted some may have spoken to a friend of a friend of a friend. Just like urban myths are spread today.

Suetonius makes reference to a Crestus stirring trouble with the Jews in Rome between 41-54 ce. What was Jesus doing in rome? if that is a reference to Christ.
I have allready stated my opinion of Josephus and Tacitus.
There were at the time frame under discussion here [or within 100 years of when Jesus is supposed to have lived] about 27 Pagan writers who have left us with not so much as a word on Jesus. Yet their writings could fill a library.

Pliny, Suetonius and Tacitus were writing at the beginning of the 2nd century, long after the events are supposed to have happened. So no credence can be placed of any importance on their historical references to any Jesus. They certainly make reference to christians, but alas, no Jesus.
 
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kmortis said:
And have to fight to not get the dreaded TV-MA (VLS) rating....


I have to ask, how many of these threads do we have to have at one time?
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A trinity would be fitting, I think.

We can start 3 threads and have the powers-that-be mysteriously merge them into one in triune perfection.
 
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tsg said:
That would make me very gruntled, illusioned and heartened.

Appointed, even.
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I always thought the word repug and obnox would make fitting nouns.

As far as Jesus goes... I'm leaning towards the theory that Paul was a bit like Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard-- ya' know--

So that would make Jesus like the disappearing gold plates that floated up to heaven or Xenu...

(Is "Johnny Appleseed" based on a real person?)
 
articulett said:
Come on... you think these aren't signs?

http://current.com/items/88798180_holy_doggie_door

Surely, only an almighty ghost would be leaving his image around in such "interesting" ways...
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If that is the best god can do, what a waste. Why not grow overnight a new limb on a amputee. Now that would be a candidate for the Randi million dollar challenge not some burnt toast or watermelon with a seemingly image in the eye of the beholder. :rolleyes:
 
ambnp said:
If that is the best god can do, what a waste. Why not grow overnight a new limb on a amputee. Now that would be a candidate for the Randi million dollar challenge not some burnt toast or watermelon with a seemingly image in the eye of the beholder. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yeah! Grow a new limb with a Jesus Birthmark on it so there will be no doubt!
Enough with the moldy lemons already and X-ray blurs.
 
No, he didn't

I once thought that the Gospels must have been based on a real person or group of persons, but I don't believe that any more. You can get the whole story on www(dot)jesusneverexisted(dot)com. I should warn you, however, that there is a LOT of reading material there. You'll get addicted.

What's worse is that the fiction isn't even original; it's plagiarized from earlier religious traditions. Much of the story parallels a Persian religion called Mithraism. It was popular in Rome in the first century BCE.

I also took the blasphemy challenge on YouTube. If you want to see me just search for blasphemy challenge and look at the one from paint3d. I don't think the challenge is active any more, but I did get my free DVD of The God Who Wasn't There. It's brilliant and irreverent film making. You can still get a copy and view excerpts at www(dot)thegodmovie(dot)com.
 
paint3d said:
I once thought that the Gospels must have been based on a real person or group of persons, but I don't believe that any more. You can get the whole story on www(dot)jesusneverexisted(dot)com. I should warn you, however, that there is a LOT of reading material there. You'll get addicted.

What's worse is that the fiction isn't even original; it's plagiarized from earlier religious traditions. Much of the story parallels a Persian religion called Mithraism. It was popular in Rome in the first century BCE.

I also took the blasphemy challenge on YouTube. If you want to see me just search for blasphemy challenge and look at the one from paint3d. I don't think the challenge is active any more, but I did get my free DVD of The God Who Wasn't There. It's brilliant and irreverent film making. You can still get a copy and view excerpts at www(dot)thegodmovie(dot)com.
Click to expand...
Why do you think it's a work of fiction? Here is another site for open minded reason seeking individuals. www.jesusmystries.demon.co.uk
 
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grayman said:
... I wonder how those {martyrdom of 10 apostles and others - added} are supposedly proofs of Jesus existence.
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The martyrdom of 10 of the 11 apostles and others, mentioned in post # 2 of this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3278950#post3278950

certainly doesn't hurt the case for Jesus' existence. And if you saw a teacher of yours raised from the dead, wouldn't that make you more likely to believe their teachings, increase your boldness, and not fear death as much for preaching those teachings in a hostile dangerous foreign occupied land.
 
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It amazes me how history can be changed by a supposed fraud. I just don't see it. There's not enough motivation to keep a lie like that going, UNLESS ... something big really happened, and continued happening.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Jesus is almost certainly is entirely mythological. Mark was written sometime in 70 C.E., and the other gospels in the next twenty years were based off that writing, leaving roughly a forty year gap where no gospels were written about the life of Jesus. "But wait," a Christian might say, "Paul wrote his letters as early as 60 C.E." Yes, but nowhere in any of Paul's writing does he refer to Jesus having had a life in the physical realm. His Virgin Birth, miraculous healings and manifestations of divine power, confrontation with the money lenders, trial, everything appears first in the gospels which are all mutually contradictory and which conflict with the Pauline Christianity that focused on Jesus's status as a powerful being in some purely mythical realm. His symbolic death and resurrection was of spiritual meaning and Paul wrote passionately about that (though many letters attributed to him are probably not his) but he never mentions Jesus's life.
Click to expand...

This paragraph has false statements. I notice there is no source. And I also noticed that most of the informational posts in this thread have no sources.
 
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DOC said:
The martyrdom of 10 of the 11 apostles and others, mentioned in post # 2 of this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3278950#post3278950

certainly doesn't hurt the case for Jesus' existence. And if you saw a teacher of yours raised from the dead, wouldn't that make you more likely to believe their teachings, increase your boldness, and not fear death as much for preaching those teachings in a hostile dangerous foreign occupied land.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by a 'foreign' occupied land. Occupied yes, by the Romans, but they were not foreigners. The early christians were mostly Jews.
If this teacher as you state was raised from the dead, it would have been the greatest event since the Big Bang. The history books written at that time would be full of this miraculous event. The news would have travelled to all the four corners of the world by travellers. That it's only found in the gospels says it all. :rolleyes: :boggled:
 
ambnp said:
What do you mean by a 'foreign' occupied land. Occupied yes, by the Romans, but they were not foreigners. The early christians were mostly Jews.
:
Click to expand...

Yes, I should have said hostile dangerous land occupied by foreigners which is what I meant.


ambnp said:
If this teacher as you state was raised from the dead, it would have been the greatest event since the Big Bang. The history books written at that time would be full of this miraculous event. The news would have travelled to all the four corners of the world by travellers. That it's only found in the gospels says it all.
Click to expand...


If God wants to come down and impress "everyone in the world" with tricks I'm sure He could do it. I have to believe the message of love and forgiveness to those who sincerely repent is more important to God than the miracles.

Christ only appeared (after the resurrection) to several hundred people. But that was enough to get message out "very quickly". A Christian church was in Rome only about 30 years after the crucifixtion.

Here is a site that shows the famous Roman historian (and Roman Senator) Tacitus reported Christians being in Rome as soon as 64 ad. which is only about 30 years after the crucifixion. The non-Christian historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions Christ and Pontius Pilate.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/tacitus.html
 
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The gospel of Mark is according to biblical scholars the first gospel to be written.
All the other gospelers wrote theirs with Mark's in front of them. Mark does not make any statement that Christ rose on the third day. That tradition come much later. That's how legends are born. Each retelling is added to by the re-teller. Mark finishes his gospel with the statement that the women went to the tomb only to find it empty. That's it.
The body could have been stolen as the tradition states, or the women could have gone to the wrong tomb. The legend of christ raising from the dead started from there.
 
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