Did FAA New York really stopped Otis-fighters?

[bio]

According the official conspiracy theory (OVT), FAA New York stopped the fighters from Otis in protecting New York after 09:03.

After the first crash (WTC 1), NEADS still wanted to head the fighters over New York:

Commander Wants Fighters Sent to New York - In Rome, New York, NEADS has just received news of the plane hitting the WTC (see 8:51 a.m. September 11, 2001). Major Kevin Nasypany, the facility’s mission crew commander, is asked what to do with the Otis fighters. He responds: “Send ‘em to New York City still. Continue! Go! This is what I got. Possible news that a 737 just hit the World Trade Center. This is a real-world.… Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, JFK [International Airport] area, if you can. Make sure that the FAA clears it—your route all the way through.… Let’s press with this.”
Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006

but ....

... but, according to Vanity Fair, shortly after the second tower is hit, the NEADS weapons technicians get “pushback” from civilian FAA controllers, who are “afraid of fast-moving fighters colliding with a passenger plane,” so the two fighters are directed to a “holding area” just off the coast, near Long Island (see 9:09 a.m.-9:13 a.m. September 11, 2001).
Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006

This makes no sense to me, because FAA New York called NEADS around 09:03 in regard of Flight 175! How can they do that on the one hand sight, on the other forbid NEADS heading their fighters over New York?

Around 09:03
The 9/11 Commission will later conclude that the FAA’s New York Center tells NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) that Flight 175 has been hijacked at this time.
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

see graphic of the crazy fighter-route here:
http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/281_map_otisflight2050081722-9162.jpg

Major General Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD’s Continental Region, will say the fighters are “coming to New York.”
MSNBC, 9/23/2001; Slate, 1/16/2002

Lt. Col. Timothy Duffy, the lead Otis pilot, tells the BBC, “When we took off we started climbing a 280-heading, basically towards New York City.”
BBC, 9/1/2002

 

[Dave Rogers]

Your post answers all its own questions. NEADS sent fighters to New York with very little idea of what they could do when they got there, and asked the FAA for authorisation when they were on the way. The FAA, also with no idea what the fighters could do when they got there, decided it was dangerous to have them flying around when other airliners were still in the air, so they told them to stay clear until they'd got some idea what they should do.

Aside from that, what you're demanding is that, within twelve minutes of a completely unexpected and unprecedented attack, NEADS and the FAA should already have discussed and agreed upon a concerted plan on how to defend the city against a further attack. In real life, as opposed to the movies, that's effectively impossible.

So, our apologies that NEADS and the FAA didn't have your 20:20 hindsight to rely on.

Dave

 

[Oystein]

There were no rules of engagement at that time, neither standing nor improvised by the NCA, to allow anybody to shoot down civilian airliners over densily populated metropolitan areas.

FAA realized that immediately. Trutherworld has failed to understand this for nearly 9 years.

Suppose Duffy had shot down another airliner hurrying for a landing at any of the surrounding airports? Without clear identification of targets and their intentions, there is no point of having a CAP.

bio, you are German. You certainly followed our former interior minister Wolfgang Schaeuble's attempt at legalizing shoot-down authority for civilian targets, and how this proposed law was summarily sacked by our Federal Constitutional Court (BVG) some years ago? Do you recall and can you summarize the reasons why this law was sacked? Do you agree with the BVG on that matter?

 

[jammonius]

The posts in this thread are of extremely limited usefulness imho because they lack the proper critical framework of assessing the extent to which the military exercises then and there taking place confused the situation so hopelessly as to prevent both NEADS personnel and FAA personnel from being able to distinguish "real" from "exercise."

As I have elsewhere said, the military exercises created a mechanism by which the events of 9/11 could have been carried out by people who did not know what they were actually doing.

Sooner or later, the significance of the fact that a process was underway that could enlist a lot of unknowing, but nonetheless key participants in causing the 9/11 psyop hoax to occur, will emerge into public awareness.

So far, this thread is stuck on stupid, as it were, by ignoring the impact of the exercises.

Good luck in coming to your senses.

 

[BigAl]

I want another hiatus

Of duplicate posts by Jam.

 

[grandmastershek]

i can't imagine what would go wrong with having fighter jets flying around an area with 3 major airports. then again at least its not reagan international with airliners trying to land while out maneuvering missiles from the pentagon.

 

[Dog Town]

Good luck in coming to your senses.

 

[Loss Leader]

As I have elsewhere said, the military exercises created a mechanism by which the events of 9/11 could have been carried out by people who did not know what they were actually doing.

Sooner or later, the significance of the fact that a process was underway that could enlist a lot of unknowing, but nonetheless key participants in causing the 9/11 psyop hoax to occur, will emerge into public awareness.

This assumes that all of the people who "did no know what they were actually doing" at the time have never been able to piece together that their actions may have had something to do with 9/11. Not one single low-ranking soldier (probably now a civilian) ever thought, "My God, what have I done?" Not one single person ever developed a guilty conscience, either deservedly or undeservedly. And not one single person ever spoke to anybody - friends, truthers, the press - about the nagging worry that maybe they were somehow involved.

Your understanding of human behavior, emotion, motivation, socialization and interaction appears grossly underdeveloped.

 

[Edx]

The posts in this thread are of extremely limited usefulness imho because they lack the proper critical framework of assessing the extent to which the military exercises then and there taking place confused the situation so hopelessly as to prevent both NEADS personnel and FAA personnel from being able to distinguish "real" from "exercise."

As I have elsewhere said, the military exercises created a mechanism by which the events of 9/11 could have been carried out by people who did not know what they were actually doing.

Sooner or later, the significance of the fact that a process was underway that could enlist a lot of unknowing, but nonetheless key participants in causing the 9/11 psyop hoax to occur, will emerge into public awareness.

So far, this thread is stuck on stupid, as it were, by ignoring the impact of the exercises.

Good luck in coming to your senses.

Even if that were true, and we've been over war games claims here enough to say its not, this is irrelevant to the fact that they wouldnt have been able to help anyway.

 

[Oystein]

The posts in this thread are of extremely limited usefulness imho because they lack the proper critical framework of assessing the extent to which the military exercises then and there taking place confused the situation so hopelessly as to prevent both NEADS personnel and FAA personnel from being able to distinguish "real" from "exercise."
...

This does not apply to my post, as I did not even talk at all about what NEADS and FAA did or did not do.

However, you are simply wrong, as always.
FAA was not doing any excercises at all. They are not military. No air traffic controller in a real world shift handling real world planes would ever be involved in any sort of excercise, since that would always be prone to lead to confusion and thus be unsafe.

Only the military, in utter peace time, would involve live duty personel in excercises.
However, the confusion whcih you allude to did not break out at NEADS. Because it is utterly clear to any military controller which input is real and which is excercise. Furthermore, the live duty alert fighters at Otis and Langley would never ever be involved in an excercise. Anybody at NEADS knows this. It is only in Trutherworld where such basics are not known.

 

[Dave Rogers]

see graphic of the crazy fighter-route here:
http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/281_map_otisflight2050081722-9162.jpg

Incidentally, if this is accurate, it makes it quite clear that it would have made no difference at all if the fighters had taken a straight-line course to New York. At best, they might have arrived five minutes earlier, still far too late to do anything.

Dave

 

[bio]

Thank you for the responses.

Indeed the behaviour of faa, new york would be highly suspicious, if OVT was true. First faa new york should have failed to call neads 11 minutes after it was clear, was was going on...

FAA New York McCormick:
Probably on of the most difficult moments of my life was the 11 Minutes from the point I watched this aircraft, when we first lost communications until the point the aircraft hit the WTC. For those 11 Minutes, I knew, we knew, what was going to happen, and that was difficult.
CNN, 8/12/2002

... then faa new york, should have prevented the fighters from protecting new york!

Could it be, that there was an "exercise" in place, which "hijacked" or manipulated the responses of faa, new york?

We know for example of tripod II, which was scheduled for 12. September, but i found no hints, that faa, new york was included in that.

 

[Oystein]

Thank you for the responses.

Why did you not read the repsonses then? Or did you not understand them?

Indeed the behaviour of faa, new york would be highly suspicious, if OVT was true. First faa new york should have failed to call neads 11 minutes after it was clear, was was going on...

FAA New York McCormick:
Probably on of the most difficult moments of my life was the 11 Minutes from the point I watched this aircraft, when we first lost communications until the point the aircraft hit the WTC. For those 11 Minutes, I knew, we knew, what was going to happen, and that was difficult.
CNN, 8/12/2002

... then faa new york, should have prevented the fighters from protecting new york!

How so? How do you imagine the fighters could have protected New York at that time? As Dave Rogers has rightly pointed out, the second crash happened long before the fighters could have POSSIBLY reached New York, long before they entered a holding pattern. After that, there was nothing left to protect New York City from.
Why did you not read or understand Dave's post on that?

As I have pointed out, sending fighter planes with lose guns over a megacity like New York with lots of civilian airtraffic going to and from 3 major and a number of minor airports in the vicinity is ridiculously unsafe.
Why did you not read or understand my post on that?

Could it be, that there was an "exercise" in place, which "hijacked" or manipulated the responses of faa, new york?

No, it could not, as I have explained. Why did you not read or understand my post on that particular topic?

We know for example of tripod II, which was scheduled for 12. September, but i found no hints, that faa, new york was included in that.

Compare 12 september with 11 september and report on your findings. How do they relate to one another?
Why doesn't your failure to find any evidence to support your fantasy get you on the right track?

 

[Pinch]

I'm sorry, but this stuff gets real old real fast. The expectation that some people have that *everyone* *everywhere* knew *everything* with 100% clarity that day is, frankly, absurd and more people should realize that if they applied any critical thinking skills to the question, some of these questions could become moot in seconds.

"The fog of war" is not just some quaint, trite little throw-away phrase that someone made up with as filler copy. Clausewitz said "Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult.". Simply making sense of the information flow coming into the FAA centers or the Northeast Air Defense Sector HQ or Otis or Langley AFB proved to be most difficult, and getting interceptors in the air and getting them the information that, at the time, nobody had faith in was very, very difficult.

Much of the standard operating procedures for these alert launches were left over from the old NORAD defense posture days - the threat was external, from long range Bears or Badgers from the USSR or Cuba. Staging alert-launched aircraft offshore was the PRACTICAL thing to do - it kept the threat sector nearby, it deconflicted with civilian air traffic, and provided a ready marshal area for the aircraft to join, refuel off a tanker, whatever. The fact that both sets of alert interceptor aircraft were sent to these staging areas (W-386 for the Langley fighters and W-105/106 for the Otis fighters) is nothing but standard operating procedures.

Yeah...if the information flow was perfect and everyone knew exactly and precisely what was going on, kick the ties and light the fires on those fighters and give them a direct intercept vector to whatever aircraft was in extremis and issue a red and free on whatever it was you knew *exactly* about and blow that SOB out of the sky befor eit hit a building. Too bad life isn't like that.

 

[Oystein]

bio, what do you think FAA and NORAD should have done to protect NYC?

Let's assume you were the highest operating commander of NEADS that day.
Let's assume you were given every relevant bit of information on the unfolding situation only seconds after it first entered the system.
Let's assume you interpreted every bit of information immediately and correctly with 100% accuracy
Let's assume you knew precisely about every resource you had at hand at that moment.
Let's assume you could issue an order to each resource within seconds and be sure that it was executed without any delay whatsoever.

Please describe, given the information that you have, how you would have handled the situation! Where would you have sent the fighters? With what orders? What would they have done? When? What would have been the result?

 

[Dumb All Over]

According the official conspiracy theory...

I was unaware there was an "official" conspiracy theory. Is there one?

 

[bio]

I'm sorry, but this stuff gets real old real fast. The expectation that some people have that *everyone* *everywhere* knew *everything* with 100% clarity that day is, frankly, absurd and more people should realize that if they applied any critical thinking skills to the question, some of these questions could become moot in seconds.

"The fog of war" is not just some quaint, trite little throw-away phrase that someone made up with as filler copy. Clausewitz said "Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult.". Simply making sense of the information flow coming into the FAA centers or the Northeast Air Defense Sector HQ or Otis or Langley AFB proved to be most difficult, and getting interceptors in the air and getting them the information that, at the time, nobody had faith in was very, very difficult.

Much of the standard operating procedures for these alert launches were left over from the old NORAD defense posture days - the threat was external, from long range Bears or Badgers from the USSR or Cuba. Staging alert-launched aircraft offshore was the PRACTICAL thing to do - it kept the threat sector nearby, it deconflicted with civilian air traffic, and provided a ready marshal area for the aircraft to join, refuel off a tanker, whatever. The fact that both sets of alert interceptor aircraft were sent to these staging areas (W-386 for the Langley fighters and W-105/106 for the Otis fighters) is nothing but standard operating procedures.

Yeah...if the information flow was perfect and everyone knew exactly and precisely what was going on, kick the ties and light the fires on those fighters and give them a direct intercept vector to whatever aircraft was in extremis and issue a red and free on whatever it was you knew *exactly* about and blow that SOB out of the sky befor eit hit a building. Too bad life isn't like that.

the behavior of faa, new york is just so unbelievable:
For example as faa/new york was informed by faa/boston about Flight 11, new york asked boston concerned, if the military was informed about that flight. This concern, new york (should have) given up obviously 15 minutes later.
or .. as NEADS phoned new york about Flight 11, in a time as new york already knew about the second hijack and (should have) said nothing NEADS about the second hijack?

 

[bio]

Incidentally, if this is accurate, it makes it quite clear that it would have made no difference at all if the fighters had taken a straight-line course to New York. At best, they might have arrived five minutes earlier, still far too late to do anything.

Dave

According to Otis, its fighters can reach New York in ten minutes if they fly with an average speed of 1,125 mph. So it was possible to intercept Flight 175.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14274495/...ut-62603-What-Was-the-Government-Doing-on-911

 

[DGM]

According to Otis, its fighters can reach New York in ten minutes if they fly with an average speed of 1,125 mph. So it was possible to intercept Flight 175.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14274495/...ut-62603-What-Was-the-Government-Doing-on-911

Then what? Where would all the debris land? The plane (it won't disappear) would still take-out something, maybe an elementary school with 1000 kids?

 

[Pinch]

According to Otis, its fighters can reach New York in ten minutes if they fly with an average speed of 1,125 mph. So it was possible to intercept Flight 175.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14274495/...ut-62603-What-Was-the-Government-Doing-on-911

Anyone know what a Fourth Generation fighter aircraft burns fuel-wise in full afterburner? The F-14A Tomcat with the P/W TF-30 engines, being flown now only by the Ayatollah's Air Force, drank up 2,000 lbs of fuel every minute in afterburner.

Why would you need to be in afterburner? To reach that Mach 1.6 speed of 1,125 mph at 25,000 feet.

Fuel load for a Tomcat with tanks? 20,000 lbs. The Otis-launched F-15C Eagle fuel load with tanks? A tad more at 22,000 lbs. You'd be bone dry and sucking fumes and vapor after less than 10 minutes - you'd get an extra minute's reprieve or so with an Eagle.

A Tomcat TF-30 engine burned that 2,000 lbs of gas in full afterburner giving only about 17,000 lbs of thrust. The F-15 engines P/W F100s pump out about 25,000 lbs of thrust in full blower, meaning that max fuel flow could even be higher.

I've heard this question a bunch of times, usually from brain-dead truthers, occasionally from those who simply are totally un-knowledgeable about jet aircraft and what it takes to make them go fast. They do not think of fuel flow and what it takes to move 50,000 lbs through the air at speeds faster than the speed of sound - and keep it there.

Where the airliner wreckage will fall would be only one of your worries. Where to put down your gliding out-of-fuel flying brick would be another. Ejection is usually the best answer, meaning there would be yet *another* aircraft impacting some unsuspecting homeowner in Yonkers or some place.