Did Christianity do anything unique in history?

[Gandalfs Beard]

OK, well I maintain that there is nothing in the language or tone of my previous posts that suggests I was arguing for superiority, but this is a matter of perception so there’s nothing to be done.

Your point appears to be that you agree that Christian musical culture is unique, but that somehow this doesn’t count as a valid answer to the OP because it’s not uniquely unique? Seems a bit…semantic.

You also seem to be doing your best to separate out the religious influence from everything else. Your phraseology suggests that the Church was simply some sort of commissioning body working within a pre-existing artistic tradition, asking artists to create religious pieces when they might otherwise have been writing songs about trees and flowers.

A more accurate picture would be to say that the Church (again, like any other religion) was creating its own tradition by creating both physical and psychological spaces within which its individual members could express their own deeply and honestly held religious feelings and convictions through art.

My point being that Christianity (like any religion) has been intimately involved in shaping European musical and other artistic traditions, to the extent that if it had taken a different form then not only the culture, but the creative psychology of the individuals producing that culture, would be profoundly changed and art would be produced and consumed in a very different way. This is evidenced by the fact that – as you correctly say – where Christianity does take a slightly different form you get a palpably different tradition.

You can’t unpick the religion from the culture and the culture from the individuals in it – which is why I don’t think you can ever pinpoint a ‘uniquely unique’ contribution at all.

No, I'm not suggesting that Christian Music isn't "uniquely unique" enough. I'm saying that the Uniqueness of Religious Music is due to Cultural Styles, not the specific religion itself.

I do agree that Religion is bound up in their cultural traditions, influencing and being influenced by their indigenous cultures; however the same can be said for any religion and its cultural background.

My interpretation of the OP is that it is asking for some unique historical contribution that can be specifically ascribed to Christianity itself as a religion, not the uniqueness of cultural styles.

What you were essentially doing was the equivalent of comparing the unique qualities of a Rembrandt painting to a Soami painting, and then claiming that somehow the Rembrandt is "Uniquer" than a Soami. This is why your posts seemed to be expressing a superiority complex. I accept that may not have been your intention though.

GB

 

[JohnJohn]

At least you're not trying to prove God empirically, which is a step forward for a Christian Apologist.

But if you believe in a particular God, and you worship that God, then sir, by definition you are practicing Religion.

GB

Christianity is about a relationship, not religion.

God said we are without excuse in not believing in Him. He has made Himself known through his creation, such as nature, the galaxies, the very fact that he controls the cosmology. If he didn't the universe would cease to exist.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

So it's QUITE ALL RIGHT when atheists murder and starve and torture human beings, but it is absolutely HORRIBLE when a Christian does.

No, of course not. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that because these rather vicious criminals were not working FOR atheism, that atheists find their crimes acceptable. We (for the vast majority of us) do not.

All we state is that they didn't commit these crimes because they were atheists and that their lack of faith didn't lead them to be vicious killers, unlike how the Crusades, for example, were in part motivated by religion, or witch trials were motivated by Christianity.

 

[Resume]

Christianity is about a relationship, not religion.

God said we are without excuse in not believing in Him. He has made Himself known through his creation, such as nature, the galaxies, the very fact that he controls the cosmology. If he didn't the universe would cease to exist.

If he's made himself known, how come so many don't believe in him? Must suck at providing evidence.

 

[keale]

If he's made himself known, how come so many don't believe in him? Must suck at providing evidence.

I dont think that god speaks chinese or vietnamese or any other language other than hebrew and greek thats why god needs human translators.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Christianity is about a relationship, not religion.

God said we are without excuse in not believing in Him. He has made Himself known through his creation, such as nature, the galaxies, the very fact that he controls the cosmology. If he didn't the universe would cease to exist.

Sorry, the only "Religion of No Religion" that I know of is Buddhism--you know--the Godless Religion.

You believe in a Deity, you worship Him. That's a Religion by definition. Besides which, the only reason you "know" that your Deity is Jehovah is because of a Book.

GB

 

[JohnJohn]

If he's made himself known, how come so many don't believe in him? Must suck at providing evidence.

What is it you guys really are afraid of? I look at the majesty of nature, storms, stars, planets, the human body and the way it heals itself. I see the hand of God everywhere. But you guys want to believe this was all an accident? Some silly big bang? What started the bang?

I think what it really is is a fear of having to submit to some higher authority which would mean you lose your autonomy, you are not the master of your own fate/destiny. You guys are too prideful to ever humble your selves and admit you do bad things and no, mankind is not getting better. You are not an accident but wonderfully and fearfully made.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

What is it you guys really are afraid of? I look at the majesty of nature, storms, stars, planets, the human body and the way it heals itself. I see the hand of God everywhere. But you guys want to believe this was all an accident? Some silly big bang? What started the bang?

I think what it really is is a fear of having to submit to some higher authority which would mean you lose your autonomy, you are not the master of your own fate/destiny. You guys are too prideful to ever humble your selves and admit you do bad things and no, mankind is not getting better. You are not an accident but wonderfully and fearfully made.

No fear! We just like someone who makes specific claims about a specific Deity to provide a little something called evidence.

GB

 

[gph]

What is it you guys really are afraid of? I look at the majesty of nature, storms, stars, planets, the human body and the way it heals itself. I see the hand of God everywhere. But you guys want to believe this was all an accident? Some silly big bang? What started the bang?

Look at the trees and rainbows therefore once upon a time a snake and a donkey spoke? Wonder at the stars therefore 2,000 years ago a dead guy got up and walked around? How do you logically step from storms and planets to primitive Jewish goat herders have already answered all the questions in the universe?

I think what it really is is a fear of having to submit to some higher authority which would mean you lose your autonomy, you are not the master of your own fate/destiny. You guys are too prideful to ever humble your selves and admit you do bad things and no, mankind is not getting better. You are not an accident but wonderfully and fearfully made.

You have it all wrong. You are making a claim about a specific deity. Provide evidence for it that doesn't involve nebulous appeals to emotion, laughable mythology or baseless assertions and I'll take it seriously. Otherwise, I have no way to tell the difference between your claim and someone who thinks they're Napoleon.

 

[Resume]

What is it you guys really are afraid of? I look at the majesty of nature, storms, stars, planets, the human body and the way it heals itself. I see the hand of God everywhere. But you guys want to believe this was all an accident? Some silly big bang? What started the bang?

I think what it really is is a fear of having to submit to some higher authority which would mean you lose your autonomy, you are not the master of your own fate/destiny. You guys are too prideful to ever humble your selves and admit you do bad things and no, mankind is not getting better. You are not an accident but wonderfully and fearfully made.

Hooey.

And prideful . . . who could be more so that those who claim to know the mind of god, and impose it on everyone else.

 

[catsmate]

What is it you guys really are afraid of? I look at the majesty of nature, storms, stars, planets, the human body and the way it heals itself. I see the hand of God everywhere.

Why do you see "the hand of God" (your particular god that is) everywhere? Because that's the way your upbringing conditioned you? Or because you studied the evidence for this "god" and then accepted it?

But you guys want to believe this was all an accident? Some silly big bang? What started the bang?

We don't know (yet) what, if anything, caused the universe. That doesn't mean that it's correct or even rational to invent a "god" to explain its existence. Humans invented thunder gods to explain meteorological phenomena before science (not religion) discovered the correct explanations.

I think what it really is is a fear of having to submit to some higher authority which would mean you lose your autonomy, you are not the master of your own fate/destiny.

Have you any evidence for this hypothesis?

You guys are too prideful to ever humble your selves and admit you do bad things

Really........

and no, mankind is not getting better.

I'm sure you can supply some evidence forn this opinion.

You are not an accident but wonderfully and fearfully made.

Ditto, evidence please.

One of the main people believe in religions (and conspiracy theories and similar rubbish) is fear. Fear of the unknown. Unwillingness to accept the reality of an uncaring universe with no special place for humanity in general or them in specific.

 

[CplFerro]

All that God Stuff on coins and in the pledge was added much, much later, and many of the Founding Fathers were Deists (no-one claims they were "atheists" so that is a Straw Man). And all those Congressional Prayers and such are clear violations of the Separation Clause of the Constitution, so what's your point? The US was founded as a Secular State.
GB

Dear GB,

I'll resist the temptation to derail my own thread on the abortion issue, and offer this one point: That the men who were bold enough to call themselves Deists two hundred years ago, were probably atheists in spirit who didn't dare go by that name.

Cpl Ferro

 

[ghpink]

I listened to a broadcast recently about how the idea that Christianity uniquely allowed science to develop to the degree it has in the West was debunked. It got me thinking, is there anything Christianity did in history that was unique, that uniquely changed civilisation for the better? Or would any other dominant religion have done just as it did?

I think that it did.

One important step in our evolution was that we believe in many gods at one time. The days of the greeks and roman, the pagan days.

Well christianity took all those gods and put them in to 1 or (3) if you like.

This revolution in religion was inevitable in my mind, but it was done by christians.

 

[gph]

Christians call it monotheism I'm guessing because the god character is all powerful but if you compare all the christian magical beings with polytheistic religions, monotheism starts to blur. Satan, angels, demons and that 3 headed thing in revelations would make for a good team in a battle against the Greek gods.

Is Christianities' claim to monotheism just semantics?

 

[tkmikkelsen]

I listened to a broadcast recently about how the idea that Christianity uniquely allowed science to develop to the degree it has in the West was debunked. It got me thinking, is there anything Christianity did in history that was unique, that uniquely changed civilisation for the better? Or would any other dominant religion have done just as it did?

In the dark ages of Europe after the withdrawal of the Byzantine empire. The monasteries was the only one that valued and kept alive the discipline of reading and writing and as an extension of that they also kept knowledge alive.
Many monks have written down the history of Europe in that time and that is where much of our understanding about dark ages Europe comes from.

Without the monks to store all this knowledge, there is no way that Charlemagne would have been able lead Europe out of the dark ages and reestablish the school system in most of Europe.

 

[tkmikkelsen]

Christians call it monotheism I'm guessing because the god character is all powerful but if you compare all the christian magical beings with polytheistic religions, monotheism starts to blur. Satan, angels, demons and that 3 headed thing in revelations would make for a good team in a battle against the Greek gods.

Is Christianities' claim to monotheism just semantics?

For the most part it is just semantics. Especially when you look at the catholic church with all their saints and the different roles of the angels. Their is just made the distinction that in Christianity their is only one supernatural being that is called a god, Yahweh. Yahweh is so vain that the other supernatural beings are not allowed to call them self the same as him.

Also the bible also does not deny the existence of other gods than Yahweh. It just states that you should worship no other god than Yahweh. The phrase goes something like this; " I am Yahweh, the god that brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. You shall have no other god to rival me." See nothing about Yahweh being the only god in existence, just a statement of that the Jews should not worship any other god.

 

[tkmikkelsen]

I think that it did.

One important step in our evolution was that we believe in many gods at one time. The days of the greeks and roman, the pagan days.

Well christianity took all those gods and put them in to 1 or (3) if you like.

This revolution in religion was inevitable in my mind, but it was done by christians.

Not quite right. This was done long before the Christians by the Jews. Don't forget that the Jews believed in Yahweh long before the Christians and the Muslims jumped on the band wagon.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Dear GB,

I'll resist the temptation to derail my own thread on the abortion issue, and offer this one point: That the men who were bold enough to call themselves Deists two hundred years ago, were probably atheists in spirit who didn't dare go by that name.

Cpl Ferro

Well, they were a varied bunch. I suspect that you may be correct about some of those that spoke out the most against religion (particularly Thomas Paine and perhaps Jefferson). But it would be difficult to make a categorical claim to that effect.

But certainly a lot of evidence points in that direction.

GB

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I think that it did.

One important step in our evolution was that we believe in many gods at one time. The days of the greeks and roman, the pagan days.

Well christianity took all those gods and put them in to 1 or (3) if you like.

This revolution in religion was inevitable in my mind, but it was done by christians.

Well, it would be more accurate to say that Trinitarian Christians are pseudo-monotheists. And Monotheism certainly was NOT invented by Christians, so none can claim THAT as a unique or revolutionary Christian contribution to History.

Strict Monotheism came rather late to Judaism (the Hebrews had a history of Polytheism), very likely influenced by Zoroastrian teachings. But once Judaism was firmly established as Monotheist, the Hebrews were quite strict about it.

Likewise, Islam is Strictly Monotheist. Early Christianity was riddled with Controversy. The followers of Arius claimed that Jesus was not divine, and the Trinitarian teachings were flat out false (at least until they caved at the First Council of Nicea organized by Constantine).

Trinitarianism has been a problem for Christian claims of being "Monotheist" ever since the Trinity became the "official" version. Some adherents of Islam claim outright that Christianity is Polytheist Paganism. Some adherents of Judaism are a little "nicer" about it, but their position is roughly the same.

I have suggested a couple of ways that Christians could resolve the issue, but none have yet to accept my "help." The biggest problem arose when the Church officially declared that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were three DISTINCT "Persons", yet one God. Well that is clearly a form of limited Polytheistic Monism (not Monotheism).

I suggested that perhaps Christians should drop the Distinct Person bit, and view the idea of the Trinity as symbolic of Mind, Body, Spirit (Spirit being the Energy or Animating life force) much as is posited in Eastern Thought--problem solved, One Entity with different aspects. Needless to say my attempts to "help" were greeted with derision.

GB

 

[JohnJohn]

No fear! We just like someone who makes specific claims about a specific Deity to provide a little something called evidence.

GB

To those who believe no proof is necessary. To those who don't believe, no proof is possible.