DHS Preparing For Civil War In The US?

[Alferd_Packer]

I've decided to call those that are buying into the DHS Ammo CT: "Plinkers," a subset of the doomsday "Preppers."

And speaking of idiots, here is a doozy

https://m.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10151339181433869

Dear Senator Cornyn,

It is with gravest concern that I write to you today concerning the recent appropriation of weapons by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that can only be understood as a bold threat of war by that agency, and the Obama administration, against the citizens of the United States of America. To date, DHS has been unwilling to provide to you, the elected representatives of the People, justification for recent purchases of almost 3,000 mine-resistant ambush-protected (MRAP) armored personnel carriers, 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition (with associated weapons), and other weapons systems, when, in fact, the DHS has no war mission or war making authority within the limits of the United States of America.

Significant is the fact that at the same time the Obama administration is arming his DHS for war within the limits of the United States against the People of the United States in accordance with his 2008 campaign speech . . .

More at the link

He's getting a lot of attention from those pushing the Plinker hoax.

I haven't been able to find out much about him other than that he supposedly retired from the US Army after 30 years service.

As a Captain.

Color me unimpressed.

 

[squealpiggy]

The numbers are based on flawed math, double counting, and a poor understanding of how Idefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity (IDOQ) contracts work.

I am not an expert, but the concepts are simple enough to grasp.

Let's say you run a training facility with multiple gun ranges that burns through about 3 million rounds a year in a particular caliber. Lets also say you want to lock in prices for that particular ammo for the next five years.

You put out a bid request asking for unit prices based on the anticipated purchase of 3 million rounds the first year, 3.1 million rounds the second year, 3.2 the third, and so on for a total of 16 million over five years.

Then you set a minimum and a maximum for the contract the minimum is easy, one unit case of a thousand rounds. Setting the maximum is trickier. You want it to be high enough so that there is no possibility that it will be exceeded during the life of the contract you don't want to max out in the third year and have to issue a change order or go through a new bid process that can take up to three months to complete.

Based on some personal experience, and from reading the POs on line, it would seem that the DHS contracting Officers set the maximum at between three and just over five times the actual anticipated purchase.

So for our theoretical purchase above, let's say that the CO sets the maximum at 18 million rounds per year, or 90 million over five years.

Now let's say you are a manufacturer who wins this contract. You want to issue a press release about it. Do you say "we were awarded a contract for the probable sale of 16 milllion rounds over five years?" Or do you say "we were awarded a contract with a potential maximum sale of 90 million rounds over five yesrs?"

In this case though the maximum is 70 million per year isn't it? 450 million over five years.

The unsupported claims of billions of bullets (ooh, good name for a band) indicate that this quantity was purchased in the last year. It looks like somebody has taken the max over five years and mistaken it for the max over one year and counted up the total and the timeframe has shifted in the retelling.

 

[Jon.]

And then there are the true idiots who think that somehow the government suddenly buying up ammunition from the private sector is business as usual.

a. You've been shown that this isn't sudden, or all that large;
b. With the lack of government owned ammunition or weapons factories - where else can they purchase arms and ammunition?

One wonders what people like CM would be saying if the government of the US did own its own ammunition and/or weapons factories.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Back in November, Senator Tom Coburn asked the Department of Homeland Security about all these bullet purchases.

This was their answer.

Ammunition purchases made by the US have gone down over the last three fiscal years - DHS bought 148,314,825 rounds in FY 2010, 108,664,054 in FY 2011, and 103,178,200 in FY 2012.

And, exactly as has been pointed out here, the vast majority of those bullets have been used for training purposes. In FY 2010, DHS used 109,439,239 rounds in training and 25,153,379 "operationally", for a total of 134,592,618 rounds used. In FY 2011, DHS used 87,211,770 rounds in training and 23,519,077 rounds "operationally", for a total of 110,730,847 rounds used. In FY 2012, DHS used 88,339,934 rounds in training and 27,887,847 rounds "operationally", for a total of 116,227,781 rounds used.

A five-year contract for the purchase of 450 million rounds works out to about 90 million rounds per year, which is far fewer rounds than DHS purchased or even used during each of the last three years.

Why is this scary to you again, Clayton?

That's just babble.

The scary part is that we have an FBI, ATF, National Guard, and many other armed law enforcement agencies plus local and state police. We don't need DHS using the US Army as law enforcement.

 

[dudalb]

Actually, those, like the current contracts are "indefinite Delivery, indefinite quantity" contracts.

The numbers are the maximum that could be purchased under them, not the actually number that was purchased.

So the contracts are what in the business world are called "Options to buy at a future date".

Much hysteria over nothing.

 

[Border Reiver]

That's just babble.

The scary part is that we have an FBI, ATF, National Guard, and many other armed law enforcement agencies plus local and state police. We don't need DHS using the US Army as law enforcement.

That's not "babble" that is a straight-forward answer as to what all those bullets are being used for.

As to the second rant above - how does the purchase of .40 cal bullets allow the US Army to be used for LEOs? Given that the US military uses NATO standard calibres, which don't include .40 cal. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[jaydeehess]

That's just babble.

How so, its a DIRECT answer and accounting for the ammo being purchased by the DHS. You do understand that is the subject of this thread, right?

You should, given that you posted the following

The US Department of Homeland Security and the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Office have placed a massive order for ammunition. The two departments are asking for 450 million rounds of bullets to be delivered in a time-frame of five years. The contractor, Alliant Techsystems, was awarded the contract and will produce .40 caliber high-performance bullets to the agencies. The order has many wondering why would DHS and ICE need so many bullets. David Seaman, journalist and host of the DL Show, helps us answer why the order was placed.

Its been demonstrated that its neither a 'massive' order and that it would be rather ridiculous to describe this a build up towards a DHS led civil war unless one can show that any civil war has been launched by a group armed only with handguns.

The scary part is that we have an FBI, ATF, National Guard, and many other armed law enforcement agencies plus local and state police. We don't need DHS using the US Army as law enforcement.

DHS does not use the US Army as law enforcement. In fact its not only false, its not even part of the discussion in this thread.

,,,, and as BR said, this contract is for small arms amme .40 cal which would not fit any firearms that the US Armed Forces carry.

Its a law enforcement agency caliber

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I like the whole concept that the DHS is planning to take over the country with 3000 armored cars and a bunch of handguns.

 

[Horatius]

...is planning to take over the country with 3000 armored cars and a bunch of handguns.

Oh Crap! I just realized something!

 

[Courier]

Civil war start yet?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That's just babble.

= "Waaaaah! I hate it when people answer my questions. You and your pesky facts. Grrr."

 

[Muc]

One wonders what people like CM would be saying if the government of the US did own its own ammunition and/or weapons factories.

It actually does own the Lake City Army Ammunition plant in Missouri, where contractors produce 1,4 billion bullets for the military every year - and normally this is not even enough to cover the demand (which was 1,7 billion in 2005, for example). According to CT logic the US Army would probably need to wage a continuous word war to use all of this ammunition up. Also, since no one ever seems to practice, everyone should have killed everyone several times in the US by now, with all the billions of bullets being sold to private gun owners. Or maybe it's the DHS that should be worried about the population planning a violent overthrow of the government - what else would civilians need all this ammo for?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Or maybe it's the DHS that should be worried about the population planning a violent overthrow of the government - what else would civilians need all this ammo for?

Isn't that the whole enchilada: CTs projecting their logic and desires on nameless government personnel.

What are they doing with all that ammo?
Don't know, but I know what I'd do . . .
Really, what's that?
Well, I'm slowly stockpiling ammo for <preferred end times prophecy or CT> and then we'll take over the whole country.
Bet they're just doing the same thing.
Yep.

All without noticing that there is no need for the government to launch a civil war, since they are the government, and they would have no one to launch it against, again because they are the government. Sigh.

 

[tsig]

That's just babble.

The scary part is that we have an FBI, ATF, National Guard, and many other armed law enforcement agencies plus local and state police. We don't need DHS using the US Army as law enforcement.

You'll have to look far at sea that ship has already sailed.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

On one web site, the following was posted

This isn't a Blog, I guess this is where the information in the last year is coming from, I'm not going through all of them, but I'm guessing the persons who are keeping track of the numbers are correct

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...062d923f87db4df15c676da7943&tab=core&_cview=0

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=83235aa189aed5b8b8bdf49eebc8a0e7&_cview=0

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...&id=c432be5826bf182b180ab4c2392aa978&_cview=0

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...&id=ae91c5951dd1eb9552f75e704f6178dc&_cview=0


Although members of Congress are treating the matter with the seriousness it deserves, the mainstream and leftist media have attempted to ridicule the entire issue as a conspiracy theory.

If you look at those, you will find four bid solicitations, only one of which was actually awarded.

(and at the price, they paid, I can understand why they are trying to drive down the prices with large bulk orders )

 

[jaydeehess]

All without noticing that there is no need for the government to launch a civil war, since they are the government, and they would have no one to launch it against, again because they are the government. Sigh.

Well, yeah, there is that!

Exactly what or who is the DHS going to overthrow, Clayton?

 

[Elizabeth I]

Well, yeah, there is that!

Exactly what or who is the DHS going to overthrow, Clayton?

I think maybe Clayton's hypothetical scenario is that the government expects the citizenry to revolt and is arming to meet that threat, not that the government plans to start a civil war itself.

If so, I'm sorry I understood it.

 

[Alareth]

Well, yeah, there is that!

Exactly what or who is the DHS going to overthrow, Clayton?

I'm reminded of a truther some years ago that made the ominous sounding claim that the goverment had taken over the country when nobody was looking.

 

[jaydeehess]

I think maybe Clayton's hypothetical scenario is that the government expects the citizenry to revolt and is arming to meet that threat, not that the government plans to start a civil war itself.

If so, I'm sorry I understood it.

Oh I see, a conspiracy theorist's wet dream then, the culmination of years of paranoid musings, of deep seated hate for government and the belief that the vast majority of citizens (read: WASP) are like minded, who believe that the baby killers, McVeigh and Nichols are heroes who tried to start this civil war too soon.

 

[jaydeehess]

I'm reminded of a truther some years ago that made the ominous sounding claim that the goverment had taken over the country when nobody was looking.

some years ago?? Perhaps as close as 1776? (wrt to the USA)