Designing a test for the magnetic coasters...

[TheBoyPaj]

Anyone thought of the possible Coghill "out", which would be "you didn't use it properly"?

What if, for example, you can't even discern a difference in the open test? This is why Randi always makes the claimant demonstrate the effect.

 

[Vorticity]

This is basically identical to a test I set up and supervised as a teaching assistant in grad school with 3 different sources of water (2 were expensive bottled waters, 1 was just water from the tap down).

Yeah, it was just a test of proportions, testing if p = 1/3 or if p is different from 1/3.

Was it?

 

[Tez]

Many thanks to y'all for your suggestions.

Heres a mini-summary of what I'm thinking so far.

I'll test both water and wine - people can do the water first just in case

I dont see a way to really keep secret what is being tested, and unless I can do so perfectly its not a useful control.

I will test the claims on Roger's website as far as possible. I considered seriously the surface tension experiment, but its somewhat of a pain with respect to equipment and a quickish protocol.

It is hard to know about the question of carrying in glasses from a separate room, versus hidden/similar coasters etc under flasks in plain view. Especially since there seem to be no studies on the half-life of magnetised water or wine! The one set of instructions suggests you keep it in the fridge, and presumably you dont have to drink it while enclosed in the fridge yourself. The advantage of not having the jugs of liquid under hidden coasters in the same room as the testees, is that they then will not know whether their liquid came from the same jug or not. So I am leaning towards a separate room, with rapid dissemination to the testing area.

For the wine I think I will pour a couple of bottles of a medium quality Aussie wine into the one flask, then split them just before magnetisation.

I have no pets, nor do I have ready access to someone who believes wholeheartedly there will be a difference. The one undergraduate mentoree I have who believes in homeopathy etc says he wouldnt be surprised if it worked, but didnt feel strongly about it. He unfortunately has his third year comprehensive exams week after next, and will not be amenable to being part of this test.

Roger sent me the coasters so I could try them myself before rashly taking on such a bet, I've decided to go a little bit further than testing them on my morning cup of coffee (which I have been doing with varying degrees of success...) but I realise that the test will not necessarliy satisy hardcore naysayers.

So heres an overview of the specifics:

I imagine producing a string of randomly ordered triples like this:

1 M
2 N2
3 N1

4 N1
5 N2
6 M

7 N2
8 M
9 N1

etc

where M=magnetised, N1,N2 mean "not magnetised 1 and 2"

Then I imagine labelling glasses (or plastic cups in the case of water) with a number. One student will be conscripted to pour the liquid according to the above schema. A second student will retrieve them from the room, the testees each take their three glasses and try to find the odd man out, which I really think is the simplest test as to whether there is any effect whatsoever. "Better" is too subjective. If there is no difference, as I suspect, then it cannot be better!

I will try and have some folks there who understand wine tasting, but since I dont know many people here yet, plebian physics grad students are my primary resource!

To motivate folks (well, students in particular) I am thinking I will offer a case of beer or a good bottle of wine to any person who CAN find a difference in 4 of an "odd man out of three" tastings. i.e. anyone who gets it correct for both water and wine can have another go at each and if theyre correct again both times, they win.

After all this we head for the pub (no, the testing will not be done in the pub!)

Any further thoughts?

 

[roger]

Well, not to be harsh, but if you don't blind the participants, a negative result is meaningless, motivation for winning a case of beer nonwithstanding.

Just pour the water in the other room, bring it out, and ask if any of the three tastes different. I'm not sure I understand your objection to blinding the taste testers.

 

[JPK]

Anyone thought of the possible Coghill "out", which would be "you didn't use it properly"?

What if, for example, you can't even discern a difference in the open test? This is why Randi always makes the claimant demonstrate the effect.

Coghill will always have an out. That's just the way these guys work. I've been reading his posts for weeks now. He is a master at avoiding answering any questions with clear answers. I was able to get one straight answer from him. In another thread I asked him...

Mr. Coghill,

I have read all of you posts on several differant threads. I have visited your website as well. Since you are and expert on magnetism, I would like to ask you a question. Do you think that my food stays fresher longer in my refridgerator because it's cold, or is it the magnets stuck to the front of it doing the trick? I mean why risk endangering myself, and others with dangerous electric fields when magnets will do the job?

JPK

To this he replied...
To JPK: Because it's cold in there. The fridge magnets have no biological effects. Goodnight.

Well at least he is capable of answering a question. Next I need to ask him if any magnet will work or only his special super magnets will make wine/water better.


JPK

 

[Tez]

Well, not to be harsh, but if you don't blind the participants, a negative result is meaningless, motivation for winning a case of beer nonwithstanding.

Just pour the water in the other room, bring it out, and ask if any of the three tastes different. I'm not sure I understand your objection to blinding the taste testers.

where the heck did I state that the participants wont be blinded?

I only feel I cannot prevent them from knowing that its magnets being tested (as someone had suggested).

 

[Soapy Sam]

Do the coasters act as fridge magnets? I mean can they support their own weight? If so, how much force does it take to lift them off a metal surface?
I bet the force required is negligible.
Why not get a real magnet (such as from a deceased hard drive, and try using that to magnetise water? If the coasters work, that should work better, no?

 

[JPK]

Do the coasters act as fridge magnets? I mean can they support their own weight? If so, how much force does it take to lift them off a metal surface?
I bet the force required is negligible.
Why not get a real magnet (such as from a deceased hard drive, and try using that to magnetise water? If the coasters work, that should work better, no?

I have asked MR. Coghill in another thread if any magnet will do or does only his "special magnets" that he sells work.
No response yet.


JPK

 

[SGT]

Do the coasters act as fridge magnets? I mean can they support their own weight? If so, how much force does it take to lift them off a metal surface?
I bet the force required is negligible.
Why not get a real magnet (such as from a deceased hard drive, and try using that to magnetise water? If the coasters work, that should work better, no?

Of course only these magnets work, otherwise why would the coasters be so expensive?
These magnets are made from rare earths, mined in the mountains of Tibet and blessed by Tibetan holy men. Oligoelements are added to the material by succussion.
Finally, the magnetization is imposed to the material through ancient cabalistic means, when Mars and Neptune are in quadrature.

 

[JPK]

Of course only these magnets work, otherwise why would the coasters be so expensive?
These magnets are made from rare earths, mined in the mountains of Tibet and blessed by Tibetan holy men. Oligoelements are added to the material by succussion.
Finally, the magnetization is imposed to the material through ancient cabalistic means, when Mars and Neptune are in quadrature.

Now how much would you pay? Don't answer yet!!! Because if you order in the next 5 minutes you will also recieve a Spiral Slicer free of charge. Millions have paid $100'S of dollars for these. Even if you are unsatisfied with the magnets and return them, keep the Spiral Slicer as a gift.

JPK

 

[Beancounter]

I think this testing prorocol is getting far too complex.

Surely all you have to do is stand the jug of water on the coaster for 10 minutes and then, if it sticks to your fridge you know that the coasters work!

Simple.

 

[JPK]

This just in from MR. Coghill,

To JPK: No there is nothing special about our magnets except the way we configure them Other manufaturers use different configurations and we sell theirs too if we find they are effective. Some distributors are offering magnets with field strengths too low to be biologically effective, however (<300G). We use a magnetometer to test all products before we sell them. Incidentally though the neodymium magnet producers claim that these do not lose magnetism with heat, in practice we have found they do, and we had to take special insulating precautions with our fuel economisers which were getting hot through proximity to the car engines.

Makes you wonder what he means by "configurations".

JPK

 

[SFB]

Makes you wonder what he means by "configurations".

Let alone "special insulating precautions," "fuel economizers," and car engine proximity........

 

[Soapy Sam]

Let's play fair though. Mr C is after all, putting his mouth where his money is, which is more than some would. I think he may be in danger of being voted "official" JREF Supplier of Improbable Equipment- but would his mission be tarred by the association or ours?

Now I'm pretty sure Imperial College has at least one magnetometer squirreled away.

And don't use hot tea. What is the Curie Temperature of these things anyway?









Edit for typo.

 

[roger]

where the heck did I state that the participants wont be blinded?

I only feel I cannot prevent them from knowing that its magnets being tested (as someone had suggested).

I must be misreading you somehow, or using 'blind' in a different way. This paragraph implies to me that the participants won't be blind:

I dont see a way to really keep secret what is being tested, and unless I can do so perfectly its not a useful control.

If you magnetize and pour in another room, then you can blind the testees to the knowledge that you are testing magnets. You can tell them that you are testing a chemical filtration process, or something, so their woo-woo radar won't prejudice their evaluations.

 

[Tez]

I must be misreading you somehow, or using 'blind' in a different way. This paragraph implies to me that the participants won't be blind:


If you magnetize and pour in another room, then you can blind the testees to the knowledge that you are testing magnets. You can tell them that you are testing a chemical filtration process, or something, so their woo-woo radar won't prejudice their evaluations.

It may be marginally preferable if the testees dont know the hypothesis being tested, especially since many will be physicists with a somewhat skeptical standpoint, but this is not a prerequisite of double-blind testing. As I said, its not something I feel confident I can keep secret (e.g. they've been sitting in my office a week, and my PhD student certainly has a vague idea of what I'm up to). It is an interesting question as to when blinding participants about the hypothesis is actually necessary, I disagree that this is one such situation.

 

[Loki]

SGT,

...when Mars and Neptune are in quadrature.

You are incorrect - Mars and Venus need to to be in Hexrature. I expect a formal apology and retraction shortly...

 

[Loki]

Tez,

Seems to me that you should - if possible - use the same testing protocol that Coghill has used to determine the correct "configuration" and the exact "biologically effective field strength" of the magnets.

These comments ARE claims - importantly he is implicitly saying that magnets can be too weak and (presumably) too strong to have the desired effect on water/wine. It follows then that he must have a method for determining, testing, and refining such limits. What is that method? Can we see some data gathered using this method? Surely you are more likely to generate "valid" results if you use the same protocol? So, first step would seem to be to get your hands on THAT information, and reproduce those initial results. Assuming yoiu succeed, then perhaps look at whether the protocol needs to be improved/replaced?

 

[SGT]

SGT,


You are incorrect - Mars and Venus need to to be in Hexrature. I expect a formal apology and retraction shortly...

Nope, the planetary configuration you proposed does not take in acount the correct configuration (see your next post). The correct configuration is based in the principles of Feng Shui, thus balancing the cosmic energies with the electromagnetic fields generated by the magnets.

 

[Loki]

SGT,

Ahhh ... my apologies, you are correct. I will seek enlightment in punishment for my errors. You are truly wise - can you explain to me again how duck's bladders can be used in the prevention of earthquakes? Homoeopathic Feng Shui magnets - let's see Tez explain that and stay fashionable!