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"Design for living"?

No marks for cryptic titles! :p
Sorry for my long post. I’m tired; it rambles. I hope I don’t suffer poster’s remorse tomorrow morning.

I am out of my depth here (historical analysis is completely outside my ken, as are most historical facts), but I’ll try to throw in a few thoughts. I didn’t read everything yet, but in what I did read, nothing struck me as truly outrageous except the suggestion that the pattern is evidence of god (although maybe not very good evidence). I think that stretches the definition of evidence to the breaking point. Many people dream of flying: it can’t be a coincidence. It might be something in our brain biology or our culture, but it is also evidence that people might be able to fly or, in the past, were able to fly. It isn’t good evidence, but it is some kind of evidence. Well, maybe. But it isn’t any kind of *useful* evidence, whatever I mean by that (and I’m not sure what I mean by that, yet).

I will assume it is true that this pattern does exist: altruistic social changes proposed by reformers (who are also religious) are nearly always accompanied by proposals for major changes to the predominant religious dogma. Others can debate that if they wish – for me it would be a dry, historical argument, way beyond my practical knowledge. Watch out for selection bias and classification errors!

One simple explanation: Theist reformers will express revised ethics in the cloak of religion because of the predominant belief, in the populations being reformed, that religion is what drives their ethical framework.

Another simple explanation which overlaps with the previous one: Theist reformers, and those he tries to reform, can’t or won’t separate the social ethics from the religion. They are inseparably intermixed, so any deep reforms will almost certainly cut into both.

A religious person will propose social changes in the context of religion - it is part of their fundamental world view, it is part of how they experience the world, and we can expect religion will be part of that change. You express surprise that reformers take on the additional burden of reforming religious dogma, but I could look at it this way: why are you surprised that someone trying to make big changes would shy away from making big changes? Their intent *is* to make big changes. They aren’t happy with the current muddy mixture of ethics and religious dogma – they want to change both. It might not be what you would do, but there is nothing illogical about it. If they tried to make only small changes, they probably wouldn’t make your list.

Atheism is a "non view" ... it is just an absence of a particular belief. It is not an ethical philosophy. It is NOT how atheists fundamentally experience the world, any more than they have a “non-vampire” experience of the world. An atheist proposing social change would not need to couch that change in some kind of "atheist meta-ethic" any more than he would have to explain it in terms of "non-belief-in-vampires meta-ethic". The atheist cannot use religious dogma since he doesn’t believe it, he doesn’t use his atheism since it is irrelevant, and he won’t win many supporters if his ethics are prefaced with “Since there is no God...”

Let me throw out some other, overlapping explanations for the pattern. The question to ask is not "Would any of these explanations apply to all the reformers?", but instead ask "For each reformer, could one or more of these apply?"
  • Non-divine external forces: some combination of (overlapping) institutional, historical, social, cultural, and political pressures makes reformers present their ideas in a religious context.
  • People are mostly religious, so most social changes are brought about by people with a religious agenda.
  • People with the power and standing in their community to actually implement (or even propose) social changes are even more religious, so they will have a deeper religious agenda.
  • People are mostly religious, so the relatively small number of atheist-based reforms from which to draw conclusions is just too small to do so.
  • The idea of divine inspiration has a long history and tradition - it lends authority, silences critics, and it strokes the ego. It is an effective tool; only a fool would fail to use it.
  • The inevitable pressure, conflicts, and self-doubts that reformers must inevitably experience gives them a kind of cognitive dissonance. Seeking to resolve that, the brain invents a culturally significant justification from a “higher authority”.
  • Reformers are inherently narcissists or egoists, and they get great personal satisfaction in the idea of getting others to follow their own personal belief.
  • Reformers enjoy power. What is more powerful than coopting the religious foundations of the masses? What a thrill!
  • A religious leader would be unlikely to acknowledge any contributions from atheists, for obvious reasons.
  • People who want to sell new ideas to the masses, who are mostly religious, need to also supply a religious context.
  • People genuinely or cynically provide a religious context to give their ideas the appearance of greater authority.
  • Reformers have used the lessons of previously successful reforms and followed the same pattern.
  • Religious reformers don’t separate ethics and religious – they just try to fix “all that stuff”.
  • Religious dogma is inherently unlikable and burdensome, and since its success can never be measured, and its rewards never experienced, it is ultimately unsatisfying, even though its adherents would deny that. So it is constantly being reshaped as people try to find something better. It is not surprising this would happen during other reforms.
  • Atheism is generally reviled and mocked. In order for the largely religious masses to accept changes, they expect the source of those changes to be based in religion, and they are not likely to embrace a new religious-free set of ethics.
  • Atheists tend to be more practical and results-oriented since they aren't interested in fictional, higher authorities. They tend not to worry about the vague, abstract hand-waving of "meta-ethics/religion" and instead focus on the brass tacks of implementing useful, practical changes. They steer clear of meta-ethics which might only cloud the issues. The meta-ethics, if any, are implicit in the reforms themselves.
  • The relative numbers of theist and atheist ground-breakers is consistent with the relative numbers of those groups that are in authoritative positions to let them be effective ground-breakers. The division is statistically consistent, or the sampling is biased, or the sample is too small to draw conclusions. There is no evidence of a pattern, or the pattern is exactly what we expect, with no further explanation needed.
  • The significant contributions from atheists are hard to historically identify or trace since they must ultimately percolate up to a religious leader, who would get the credit. Otherwise, the changes would go nowhere.
  • You can’t separate a theist's social ethics from his religion – they are too intertwined (consider gay marriage in the USA as an example). You can’t divide them to fit a pattern that presupposes they are separable.
 
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Sigh, not this again.

Most people throughout history have been religious. Therefore, if you want to bring about effective social change, the only way you're going to be able to is to work within the existing religious moral framework. This pretty much guarantees that you'll be seen as a religious reformer.
 
Sigh, not this again.

Most people throughout history have been religious. Therefore, if you want to bring about effective social change, the only way you're going to be able to is to work within the existing religious moral framework.

But these guys _don't_ work within the existing religious framework. They radically alter it.

Stone
 
Okay, here's what I think it is: The best philosophies arose from religious roots, the worst philosophies arose from atheist roots. Thus, religion is right and God.

Since he equates good philosophy with pro-social behaviors, the fact that religion (a pro-social institution) contains such philosophies is a given. The argument is an extensive tautology capped with a non-sequitur.

I honestly thought he was trying to write a book or something. Why couldn't he make that (erroneous) argument in a more brief post?
 
A few posters have now suggested.. that I post a lengthy assemblage of data

Most of us were urging you to cut it down, get to a base-line. Condense. Précis. Make comprehensible. Use a table, perhaps.

Lengthy is a problem. I will try to find time to read your posts, it will take a while.
 
Most of us were urging you to cut it down, get to a base-line. Condense. Précis. Make comprehensible. Use a table, perhaps.

Lengthy is a problem. I will try to find time to read your posts, it will take a while.

You are awarded the Golden Star for patience.

*
 
But these guys _don't_ work within the existing religious framework. They radically alter it.

Stone

There are those who radically change the religious framework but don't promulgate any beneficial social doctrines. How do those fit into your scheme?
 
WTL;WNR (*)




(*)Way too long, will never read.

If you want his "core argument," this is it:
Actually, that's not my core argument. My core argument is that the "progenitors of social justice and altruism" are pioneering theists who always introduce some new take on deity that makes the priests of their day nervous. Naturally, theism in and of itself is never news. Instead, it's the counter-cultural theisms that these progenitors always introduce that's the real story here. If their theisms matched their culture, there'd be no story at all. But there is a story because they don't match.

Stone

"Pioneers in altruism and social justice are pioneering theists"- though, as FrozenWolf has said, the fact that most people throughout history have been theists makes this an essentially worthless statement. It's really no more (as I said in that other thread) than the same argument Christians make when they claim science, as a method of thought, as a Christian invention, dependent on their method of thought, because "pioneering scientist X was/is a Christian" (and usually followed by a long list of scientists who were Christians in historical/cultural contexts where they couldn't realistically have been anything else).* Correlation doesn't establish causation, and isn't even good evidence for it when there's no alternative to the correlation.

Of course, Stone didn't like the analogy when I made it in that thread; but the best he could do with it then was to miss the point of it (and get unnecessarily snarky in the process). It must be an absolute drag to put so much work (and so many words) into a thesis that fails on such a basic level.

*Or the idea that the U.S. is a "Christian nation"- government by and for Christians (otherwise it's a useless cliche)- because it was founded by Christians at a time when just about nobody was anything else. It's like claiming the PGA was founded as an association of right-handed golfers because most golfers are right-handed (another analogy I've used before).
 
Stone, I feel pretty dumb for not asking this before: what would it take for you to abandon your argument? i.e. what would falsify it, what would we have to show?
 
Stone, I feel pretty dumb for not asking this before: what would it take for you to abandon your argument? i.e. what would falsify it, what would we have to show?

Fair question. Thank you. The top two paragraphs of Section VI answer that question. Please let me know if you find them unclear. If you do, I'll restate those paragraphs a bit more briefly, if I can -- and no snark! :-)

Cheers,

Stone
 
But these guys _don't_ work within the existing religious framework. They radically alter it.

Stone

You cut off the rest of what I said.

Take Jesus for example. He was not trying to found Christianity or "Jesus-ism" he considered himself a lifelong Jew, and was trying to work with the belief system he already had. In the process he became a religious reformer, though it's debatable whether or not this was his intention.

Take Martin Luther. He was not trying to run off with followers of his own and found a sect called "Lutheranism" (even though this is what people ended up doing eventually). He still considered himself a devout Catholic and was working to fix the problems he saw within the Church.

Religion exists and is the foundation of morality for the majority of people. If you're trying to introduce new morals, even if you're going to radically change it later, chances are you're going to have to at least start with the religion you're given.
 

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