Derren Brown Trick or treat

[Azrael 5]

*snip*
And the DB method using a "real" lock would be...?
(please PM if actual "exposure")

Yes Id be interested to know this also.As would a lot of mentalism performing magicians.

Just so we're clear skipjack:youclaim that a normal combination padlock can be opened by any three random numbers chosen by a spectator?

Can't wait for this.

 

[JonWhite]

Not very expensive? The list price is $97.50, whereas the list price of the Yale lock is £11.49.

In today's magic world that really isn't much for a gimmicked prop.

And for a working pro who's filling large venues and has several very successful, widely syndicated TV shows behind him...

I've spent more on a few select items and I'm only a hobby'ist.

 

[skipjack]

Just so we're clear skipjack: you claim that a normal combination padlock can be opened by any three random numbers chosen by a spectator?

Obviously not. I said a specific real Yale lock can be used to achieve the effect. Obviously, what really happens is different from what seems to happen, as with any magic effect.

 

[DJM]

And wouldn't Derren take a big chance if someone who knows about this lock is choosen from the audience? What if you were choosen and tried to open it like that? Makes more sense to me that it's a prop that the laymen know nothing about.

BTW, to say 97$ is too expensive for Derren's huge production is pretty absurd..

 

[Azrael 5]

skipjack I have read your Pm and as you wish I will not repat it here,but its a ridiculous claim.Remember this padlock and case was in the hands of a spectator for about an hour and was handled checked tugged etc.

Why would Derren take the chance regardless of the above? He wouldn't,now stop being silly and go back to talk of stooges it was more amusing.

 

[JonWhite]

Remember this padlock and case was in the hands of a spectator for about an hour and was handled checked tugged etc.

Skipjack was kind enough to PM me his thoughts also, but still gotta go with Azrael.

I can't believe that any specs would just dial in a few numbers without giving the lock a good tug to make sure it wouldn't open. I'm also pretty sure that DB would want an almost 100% failsafe method for what was such a central part of that routine.

 

[Azrael 5]

Glad some on here have sense JW!

 

[skipjack]

I know the spectator had the lock for some time, but she wasn't shown trying to find the combination, so we don't know what she did or for how long she tried, merely that she said she had tried without success. Bear in mind that the show was continuing, which would have tended to distract her.

Even with a trick lock she might find out how to open it. Derren didn't say she would fail, and could easily have continued to use the case in the show even if she had opened the lock by herself.

My experiments with a real lock allow me to know how difficult what we're discussing is, and I am sure the risk you point out is low enough for my method to be viable. Do you at least agree that if Derren did use my method, what I said about its simplicity, etc., does make sense? Remember that Derren has acknowledged being influenced by Chan Canasta, who also took risks and got away with it most of the time.

 

[JonWhite]

Glad some on here have sense JW!

 

[DJM]

Skipjack, you got it all wrong.. The monkey that you saw Derren throwing at the crowd is actually an actor dressed as a monkey.. His part is to get right to that girls hand's, so that means she's actually a stooge whose job is to pretend trying to unlock it. That also explain how he does the newspaper effect at the end of the show.

 

[Azrael 5]

Skipjack, you got it all wrong.. The monkey that you saw Derren throwing at the crowd is actually an actor dressed as a monkey.. His part is to get right to that girls hand's, so that means she's actually a stooge whose job is to pretend trying to unlock it. That also explain how he does the newspaper effect at the end of the show.

DJM this site forbids exposure.I hope a Mod deltes this!

 

[skipjack]

. . . to say 97$ is too expensive for Derren's huge production is pretty absurd..

I didn't say that. I was comparing it with the list price of the Yale lock (and subsequently added the price of the Yale lock on eBay).

I've not said here or even in a private message precisely how to use a real Yale lock for the effect. Once you have a real lock, you can probably work it out for yourself. You're welcome to try to find a supplier of a trick lock of similar appearance, but I doubt that there is one. If there isn't, how did Derren obtain one?

Was your quip about the monkey Derren used really the best you can manage? Can you not see that if a real lock can be used, Derren would probably prefer it to a lock that anyone could find on a magic supplier's list?

 

[Azrael 5]

Once you have a real lock, you can probably work it out for yourself. You're welcome to try to find a supplier of a trick lock of similar appearance, but I doubt that there is one. If there isn't, how did Derren obtain one?

Whats this scotch mist?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/Paparazzi/lock.jpg
That is sold by a magic dealer/inventor of trick locks.Im not lsiting link as it is exposure.
Sold at £149 a bit expensive for Derren of course.

Thus, I think he relied entirely on showmanship/misdirection/psychology (with the emphasis on psychology, in that if you can't open the lock at first, you soon tire of trying), but used a real lock, not a prop.

Oops you did it again
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/Paparazzi/lock.jpg

It just confirms my view that it was a real Yale lock.

Your view not very clear obviously.

In contrast, you haven't presented any evidence for your assertion that it's a trick lock, or any justification for using the word "ridiculous".

How about PWNAGE!

The padlock was left with the audience member for quite some time, which would be very risky if it was a trick padlock.

From the site that sells the linked padlock above.

A spectator inexplicably discovers the secret combination to a lock WHICH NEVER LEAVES THEIR POSSESSION.

Although technically it did leave her posession briefly,it didn't have to.

The bell is ringing, you've been down long enough.Id submit if I was you.

 

[skipjack]

Nice try, Azrael 5, but you're photograph is of the Grismer lock, and the site states, "Long unobtainable, this superb new model is made by Mick Hanzlik, the Master Locksmith."

Oh really? Enlarging the photograph clearly shows the maker's name "ABUS" on the lock. A Google search suggests the Abus and Yale locks are indeed very similar in appearance (and doesn't turn up any other lock of the same type). The real locks both seem to be currently available.

Unlike other locks by Mick Hanzlik, nothing else is stated about the principle of this lock. It possibly is just a real lock, but used in the way I have in mind for the Yale lock, which doesn't require the magician to handle the lock either. It's entirely possible that these two real locks are of almost identical internal design, so that my method works with either of them.

While Googling for the above, I found a supplier of a "needle through arm" illusion, which seemed exactly suitable for what Derren did with Robbie Williams, so I wouldn't argue that Derren doesn't sometimes use props that can easily be bought from a magic shop. I'm just saying he really didn't need to for his lock effect. Unfortunately, the DB video doesn't show the lock clearly enough for the name on it to be read.

 

[DJM]

Nice try, Skipjack, but you keep making a big fool of yourself.

The regular Abus and Yale padlocks cost about 5$ (I found the Yale one on Ebay for a dollar).. the prop that is sold to magicians costs 250$. If any of those work the same way, why would anyone pay such a high price for a prop?! They could just use the regular one and have the same results. But that's the problem, it doesn't work the same way. There's a reason a magician needs to pay about 245 extra bucks to be able to do this.

I have no idea how you can still think you are right when nothing that you say makes much sense.. it reminds me of those Sylvia fans who try to convince others that she's real while doing anything they can to ignore the facts. Weird stuff.

 

[skipjack]

One reason is that I briefly thought the lock I possessed had become permanently damaged and unusable due to my experiments with it. I soon found it wasn't, of course, but in hindsight the experience suggests that most people would not succeed unless they had reason to be suspicious. Derren Brown didn't say the lock couldn't be opened; he simply asked the spectator to try to find the combination.

Unfortunately, many magic props are sold at rip-off prices, whether they are expensive or cheap. One trick I saw in a shop (probably intended for children) was made from a matchbox and some black cotton thread, so the cheapskates couldn't even be bothered to pay for "magician's" thread!

There are several of the Yale locks currently on eBay for various prices (from a "buy it now" price of just 50 cents + shipping). There are also some Kryptonite locks, which look only slightly different.

 

[Azrael 5]

Nice try, Azrael 5, but you're photograph is of the Grismer lock, and the site states, "Long unobtainable, this superb new model is made by Mick Hanzlik, the Master Locksmith."

*edit*

Wrong again.The site was updated 16th July 2007(the site I got the picture from)so if the lock is unavailable why is it still advertised after such a recent update?

Unlike other locks by Mick Hanzlik, nothing else is stated about the principle of this lock. . Unfortunately, the DB video doesn't show the lock clearly enough for the name on it to be read.[/

It doesn't give away the principle! On a public site! Who would have thought?!
Slight error also in my earlier post:the lock is $140 not pounds.So not as expensive as it seems.

 

[skipjack]

The wording, which I simply copied from http://www.markfarrar.co.uk/grismerlock/, means that the lock was unobtainable for a long time, but now is available. It doesn't say the one that's now available is exactly the same as the original, but it would be reasonable to assume that it operates in the same way. That site says the lock is $250 (in the U.S.A.) or £140 in Europe and carries a matching photo of the lock on a bag.

The site doesn't comment at all on the method used. In contrast, the public description of another Mick Hanzlik lock lists various principles that it doesn't employ, thus limiting the possible ways in which it does work.

A comment on another forum implies that the Grismer lock is a modified real lock. If it doesn't need to be handled by the performer once handed to the spectator (and if one assumes it isn't unlocked electronically by a wireless remote), the spectator could still manage to open it. I would hope it's reasonably foolproof, but I'd happily save my money by just using a normal Yale lock for the effect and taking a small risk. The audience doesn't know what to expect, so it doesn't matter all that much if the spectator opens the lock.

 

[DJM]

I would hope it's reasonably foolproof, but I'd happily save my money by just using a normal Yale lock for the effect and taking a small risk. The audience doesn't know what to expect, so it doesn't matter all that much if the spectator opens the lock.

1) It does matter.

2) Letting an audience member try to unlock it for a hour and then watching him succed would be a lame conclusion and pretty much pointless.

3) Everything that Derren does on stage is foolproof and he doesn't take risks, at least not like this.

4) Thank God you are not a mentalist, because I have a feeling your shows would turn up to be a huge disaster.

 

[Azrael 5]

Well Ive had an email from Steve Cook who sells the lock on behalf of the inventor who clearly states that Derren used a gimmicked padlock for his effect.

You want a re-match skipjack?