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Democrats, the real conservatives

LEFEVRE! Come back in here and lighten this thread up.

American, your avatar reminds me of JFK, Jr.
A rich, pretty, arrogant a-hole who worries about whether he has a hair out of place. You are a total turn-off, boy.
 
Kodiak said:
Being a conservative libertarian, there is alot I disagree with in the GOP and the current administration, and I do what I can from within to change it, but Bush and the GOPers are not nearly as bad as the liberal democrats and their "vision" for this country.
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Could you explain for me, please, what the difference is? Because I'm really having a tough time seeing it.
 
Re: Re: Democrats, the real conservatives

shanek said:


Could you explain for me, please, what the difference is? Because I'm really having a tough time seeing it.
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I could, but considering the effort vs. the benefit, I'm not going to. For me, the differences are many and clear, but I'm not trying to convince anyone, just offering my own opinion.
 
Originally posted by Oso


* Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.

* Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning and define marriage.
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It seems to me that these are the only two valid points on the list in comparing conservatism with liberalism.

Having said that, they are valid points. Since Reagan took office, it has been the Democrats, not the Republicans, that have stood for fiscal responsibility.

The Constitution of the United States is too important to be amended for frivilous things like flag burning.
 
RandFan said:
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Remove the security from Social Security.
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You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.
OK. How did your 401k do during the last 3 years? Gambling is not conservative.

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Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy.
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Straw man.
I believe you are confused. The above was not a conservative plan, but it is what happened.

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Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.
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Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.
Actually pride is often the emotion after passage of a bill that not only helps people but includes the means to pay for it.


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Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world.
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Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.
No need to reply to this, obviously just a reflex response, because of the undeniable truth of my original statement


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Label teachers terrorists.
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I forgot the nexus for this. But I will tell you that the Teachers Union is probably the worst thing that ever happened to kids.
Another reflex reply, perhaps you should do some research or just skip it


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Abandon Hubble and existing good science. Instead try to put a man on Mars at much greater expense.
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Again, I don't really know the particulars. Was it Bush or Conservatives that suggested ending Hubble? The trip to Mars seems a little wrong headed but hey, it would be a grand idea if we could afford it and there weren't better ideas.
Bush. A grand idea if we had the $


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Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning...
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Popular amongst Republicans and Democrats, come on, let's be intellectually honest, ',
I think this is what qualifies as a straw man. Frivolous constitutional amendments are not conservative.


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...and define marriage.
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Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties. Democrat and Liberal leaders however take a significantly more tolerant stance and perhaps on flag burning also. But have the balls to admit that politically both are favored by the majority.
See above


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Gut the EPA and open up pristine environments for exploitation.
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This I am for, at least to an extent. I love how you beg the question as if it is impossible to drill for oil in an environmentally safe fashion.
Well got me on this one. I'm in the oil bidness, so I do realize we can do it cleanly, but only because we're forced to, and being in the business, I know that to be the case.
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before the US civil war I think the democrats were the conservitive party and the repblicans were the liberals or progressives.


correct me if I'm wrong.

Virgil
 
RandFan said:
quote:
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Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.
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Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.
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But certainly more of a "conservative" approach, right?

This is the thing that gets me. My dad is a conservative, right-winger, Bill OReilly/Sean Hannity watching guy. He is extremely frugal with his money, and abhores the idea of personal debt, borrowing money only for big things that you can't get in cash (like buildings - he buys cars with cash). Has a credit card, but doesn't like to use it. The concept of buying things you can't afford bothers him to no end.

So how can someone like that be such a big supporter of the republican party, which racks up the biggest deficits in history?

I used to be republican, because I thought they were against big government and were fiscally responsible. But that ended when I asked the question of when borrowing massive amounts of money was a fiscally responsible approach? It isn't at the personal level.
 
Oso said:
Remove the security from Social Security.

RandFan
You'll explain this and cure me of my Naivete.

Oso
OK. How did your 401k do during the last 3 years? Gambling is not conservative.
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  1. There have been no changes to social security.
  2. The trust fund is scheduled to run out of money.
  3. The idea is to allow people to invest for the LONG run and not just for 3 years.
  4. Compare any 30 year rate of return to social security and you will see that there is not a whole lot of security to social security.[/list=1]

    Oso
    Invade another country based purely on ideological philosophy.

    RandFan
    Straw man

    Oso
    I believe you are confused. The above was not a conservative plan, but it is what happened.
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    I'm confused? How about this. Please prove that Bush invaded Iraq on purely ideological philosophy. And while you are at it reconcile the notion that the Clinton administration believed that it was in the best interest of the Iraqis and America to replace Saddam.

    Oso
    Increase spending without paying for it. We tax and spend they just spend.

    RandFan
    Valid criticism, hardly something to be proud of.

    Oso
    Actually pride is often the emotion after passage of a bill that not only helps people but includes the means to pay for it.
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    Spare me. You can't forever increase spending and increase taxes. There is a limit to how much money you can flush down the toilet in an ineficent government and continue to be prosperous (See John F. Kennedy).

    Oso
    Alienate nearly every nation in the rest of the world.

    RandFan
    Yes, we should do what the French and Germans tell us to do. Now there is a bright idea.

    Oso
    No need to reply to this, obviously just a reflex response, because of the undeniable truth of my original statement
    Click to expand...
    By all means ignore it. You silence speaks volumes. The rest of the world does not have our best interest at heart. Diplomacy is not the be all end all. We must act in our best interest because France and Germany won't.


    Oso
    Label teachers terrorists.

    RandFan
    I forgot the nexus for this. But I will tell you that the Teachers Union is probably the worst thing that ever happened to kids.

    Oso
    Another reflex reply, perhaps you should do some research or just skip it
    Click to expand...
    Perhaps you should understand that you are posting to a skeptics forum. If you make a claim the onus is on you to prove it. Perhaps you should just skip it. I don't have to take your word for it.

    Oso
    Bush. A grand idea if we had the $
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    Was this supposed to be a response?

    Oso
    Propose frivolous constitutional amendments to outlaw flag burning...

    RandFan
    Popular amongst Republicans and Democrats, come on, let's be intellectually honest, ',

    Oso
    I think this is what qualifies as a straw man. Frivolous constitutional amendments are not conservative.
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    Then why make the point in this thread. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

    Oso
    ...and define marriage.

    RandFan
    Fair criticism but again, this is also popular amongst both parties. Democrat and Liberal leaders however take a significantly more tolerant stance and perhaps on flag burning also. But have the balls to admit that politically both are favored by the majority.

    Oso
    See above
    Click to expand...
    See above.

    Thanks for the response Oso.
 
pgwenthold said:
But certainly more of a "conservative" approach, right?

This is the thing that gets me. My dad is a conservative, right-winger, Bill OReilly/Sean Hannity watching guy. He is extremely frugal with his money, and abhores the idea of personal debt, borrowing money only for big things that you can't get in cash (like buildings - he buys cars with cash). Has a credit card, but doesn't like to use it. The concept of buying things you can't afford bothers him to no end.

So how can someone like that be such a big supporter of the republican party, which racks up the biggest deficits in history?

I used to be republican, because I thought they were against big government and were fiscally responsible. But that ended when I asked the question of when borrowing massive amounts of money was a fiscally responsible approach? It isn't at the personal level.
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It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

I know, three lefts make a right and two Wrights make an airplane.
 
RandFan said:
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste. It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support. Until they find out that lying to the little guy, getting rid of their jobs, ruining their savings, and attempting to cut their social support will result in them LOSING THE ELECTION, nothing good is going to happen.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

Based on the present government spending, and the history since the 1960's, give or take, I'm not trying to catch any one instant in time there, I gather, therefore, that you support the democrats?

I know, three lefts make a right and two Wrights make an airplane.
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More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude?
 
jj said:
Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste.
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How is voting Democrat going to help? You're just voting for one group of tax-and-spend-ucrats to get rid of another group of tax-and-spend-ucrats

It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support.
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And it's just as clear about the Democrats.

More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude?
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Not much, especially since the Patriot Act, which Kerry voted for.
 
Kodiak said:
Show me a link where the ACLU defends an individual or a gun manufacturer against a lawsuit challenging their 2nd Amendment right and I'll rethink my opinion of the ACLU...
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To avoid starting another gun thread... let me make this point (that I've made before)...

The ACLU is never going to please everyone. You don't like their stance on the second amendment and that's a legitimate point of view. Does that make them completely useless?

In my opinion most of what they do is far more important than the argument over gun control.
 
gnome said:


To avoid starting another gun thread... let me make this point (that I've made before)...

The ACLU is never going to please everyone. You don't like their stance on the second amendment and that's a legitimate point of view. Does that make them completely useless?

In my opinion most of what they do is far more important than the argument over gun control.
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That's a fair point...
 
RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

shanek
Not even if it's Rosemary's Baby? :D


RandFan
I'm not going to become a Democrat

shanek
There is a third option, you know. :p

RandFan
I'm going to work to reform the party.

shanek
Oughta work about as well as the War on Drugs...
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:p Damn! I hate it when you do that. Yes, there is a third option and reform is going to be hard. Money is as just as addictive as drugs so your analogy might not be far off.
 
RandFan
It's hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not going to become a Democrat simply because my party lacks the balls to cut back spending. I'm going to work to reform the party.

jj
Well, the only way I know of to do that is to vote Democrat if you're disgusted with things like wastiung taxpayer money and increasing taces to pay for that waste. It's as clear as polished, clean glass that the present crop of Republicans doesn't listen to the little guy at all, misleads them, spites them, and continues to enjoy their support. Until they find out that lying to the little guy, getting rid of their jobs, ruining their savings, and attempting to cut their social support will result in them LOSING THE ELECTION, nothing good is going to happen.
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Well I don't agree with all of that. I'm not sure the Democrats listen to or care about the little guy. It makes good propaganda though. There are good Democrats and good Republicans (yes shanek there are great Libertarians).

RandFan
Two wrongs don't make a right. It is wrong to waste tax payer money and continually increase taxes to pay for that waste.

jj
Based on the present government spending, and the history since the 1960's, give or take, I'm not trying to catch any one instant in time there, I gather, therefore, that you support the democrats?[/b]
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Reagan cut taxes and increased revenue (there is some controversy about how much) it was the spending that hurt us. I'm a Republican and will stay so for the near future. Any change will be straight to the Libertarian party.

More to the point, how much is LEFT of your civil RIGHTS, dude?
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Well, lets see....ALL OF THEM!

Now don't get me wrong. I'm glad that there is a debate about the Patriot act and I'm glad that the Supreme Court is hearing the case. But that there is reason for discussion is not proof that I have lost my civil rights. I am concerned about security and am not prepared to dismiss actions of the federal government just because they are controversial.

I do remember the case that you told me about. I know you believe that it is proof that I don't have many rights left but I don't accept this conclusion.
 
NPR reported the ACLU sued the gov't in secret because of the Patriot act. apparently it is against the law to sue against the Patriot act because of the gag act provision. This is greatest threat to freedom in my lifetime. I'm told that John Aschcrot in his early legal writings condemed this sort of gov't power, but now that he is the gov't it is OK.


As soon as I get a real job I'm going to have to send the ACLU some money. I really don't like some of their stands but da*m. someone has to stand up for human civil rights. If you don't hear from me it means the FBI has raided me for disagree wityh the gov't. and onlt the bad guys would disagree with the gov't ...right?


yes I'm drunkk...........


Virghil
 
Virgil said:
NPR reported the ACLU sued the gov't in secret because of the Patriot act. apparently it is against the law to sue against the Patriot act because of the gag act provision. This is greatest threat to freedom in my lifetime. I'm told that John Aschcrot in his early legal writings condemed this sort of gov't power, but now that he is the gov't it is OK.


As soon as I get a real job I'm going to have to send the ACLU some money. I really don't like some of their stands but da*m. someone has to stand up for human civil rights. If you don't hear from me it means the FBI has raided me for disagree wityh the gov't. and onlt the bad guys would disagree with the gov't ...right?


yes I'm drunkk...........


Virghil
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Understood, I've posted while intoxicated myself. I respect your opinion and am glad that Americans aren't a docile buch that are unwilling to stand up to government. I champion your cause even if I don't quite agree with it.

I don't think it would be too hard to donate $20.00 and every bit helps. If you send $10.00 I'll send $20.00, deal?
 
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