Democratic caucuses and primaries

Both Biden and Sanders are old.
But unlike Biden, Sanders doesn't have to re-invent himself to fit with what is currently acceptable. It's that extra effort every time he opens his mouth that causes Biden to look more demented than he actually is.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Both Biden and Sanders are old.
But unlike Biden, Sanders doesn't have to re-invent himself to fit with what is currently acceptable.
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A task made a lot easier when you're telling the voters "No this is what you want now" instead of listening to them tell you what they want now.
 
Yeah the guy who just decided he was a Democrat is the one who isn't re-inventing himself. That tracks.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
So nothing like new information coming out of something old he did or said, just the tide turning?
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Not even really that. Poll results right after a win often show a small bump for the winner because people like voting for a winner, even if the bump wears off soon. But also, that link was a projection, not a poll result, and projections always project whatever their creators create them to project. I could write one that would take in a bunch of carefully collected poll results and output the prediction that the election won't even happen because first Earth will be invaded by an army of telepathic Venusian butterflies wielding photon tweezers. The big-name news & politics outlets don't usually go quite that far, but they do have a long history of under-crediting Bernie's campaign every step of the way.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah the guy who just decided he was a Democrat is the one who isn't re-inventing himself. That tracks.
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Getting on a primary ballot as a Democrat has objective standards and he met them.

What else is there?

Being a member of the right caucus in D.C.? Depending on which you include or not either he is just as D as any other D or about 1/3 of Ds are also not Ds.

Can't have it both ways.

Is it indicating D in voter registration? There's several states where literally nobody is a member of the party.

I assert that nearly any definition used that cuts Bernie out would also see significant portions of the party's elected officials and millions of its supporters also considered outsiders.

That's not a smart framing to go forward with.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Yeah the guy who just decided he was a Democrat is the one who isn't re-inventing himself. That tracks.
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You and I both know he didn't "just decide", nor does he think of himself as a Democrat. Bernie Sanders has consistently presented himself as a progressive socialist who caucuses with the Democrats as a matter of strategic pragmatism. And the Democrats have consistently been willing to tolerate (if not welcome) his flexible alliance.

The only re-invention of Bernie Sanders going on here is in your own head. Out here, it's the same as it ever was.

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That said, apparently Bernie has backed off from his ideas about democracy meaning the state owns the means of production and the citizens vote on their use. Whether that's an actual turning away from state socialism, or just a moderation of his rhetoric to fit inside America's current Overton window, who can say for sure?

My guess is that it's the latter. Nobody is going to usher in an American Dictatorship of the Proletariat by openly declaring that goal in the current political context. Baby steps. Pioneering work to goad the country further in that direction. But who knows?
 
theprestige said:
That said, apparently Bernie has backed off from his ideas about democracy meaning the state owns the means of production and the citizens vote on their use. Whether that's an actual turning away from state socialism, or just a moderation of his rhetoric to fit inside America's current Overton window, who can say for sure?

My guess is that it's the latter. Nobody is going to usher in an American Dictatorship of the Proletariat by openly declaring that goal in the current political context. Baby steps. Pioneering work to goad the country further in that direction. But who knows?
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I'm still learning about Bernie, but I never knew he held the view expressed in bold. I always hear him presented as favoring higher taxes to pay for more social services as an analogue to the Scandinavian model.

I did recently hear that he plans to give free health care and education to illegal aliens, but never that he wants (or once wanted) state control of means of production.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
I did recently hear that he plans to give free health care and education to illegal aliens, but never that he wants (or once wanted) state control of means of production.
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There is a link to a DailyKos article upthread at 753.

I'm looking forward to finding out when and why the Democratic frontrunner changed his mind on this fairly fundamental question.
 
Once again, context.

Obviously, there's a political angle that facts are impervious to.

But it was 1987.

Apply historiography and put yourself in the shoes of a progressive in 1987 in the midst of the Reagan and Thatcher era. Could quite easily just be hard-nosed negotiation tactics. When your opponent marches further into their camp, you march away to yours. Chasing after them encourages them to go even further their direction (we've been doing this for decades, how's it working out?).

We can't achieve "compromise" and "pragmatism" by being compliant and conciliatory to a fault.
 
d4m10n said:
There is a link to a DailyKos article upthread at 753.

I'm looking forward to finding out when and why the Democratic frontrunner changed his mind on this fairly fundamental question.
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I don't think he did change his mind. I think that as he gets closer to actually having a shot at the presidency, he's shifting voter attention away from his ideal end goal to much more palatable progressive next steps (eventually towards that ideal end goal).

I'm pretty sure Bernie doesn't want a dictatorship, just a dictatorship of the proletariat.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Apply historiography and put yourself in the shoes of a progressive in 1987 in the midst of the Reagan and Thatcher era. Could quite easily just be hard-nosed negotiation tactics.
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Which conservative figures was the Mayor of Burlington negotiating with in 1987?

Your hypothesis seems to be that he was hypoerbolizing when talking mostly to local folks, but then dialed back his message to his actual views once he found himself on the national stage. This strikes me as highly implausible, since the process generally runs the other way.
 
d4m10n said:
Which conservative figures was the Mayor of Burlington negotiating with in 1987?

Your hypothesis seems to be that he was hypoerbolizing when talking mostly to local folks, but then dialed back his message to his actual views once he found himself on the national stage. This strikes me as highly implausible, since the process generally runs the other way.
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Digging further, he ran against Democrats for that position at times. I'm not versed enough in Burlington, VT politics to understand the context and landscape, but it would seem he'd have to be stumping super-hard left just based on that. There could well be a declining rust-belt periphery vibe there.
 
d4m10n said:
There is a link to a DailyKos article upthread at 753.

I'm looking forward to finding out when and why the Democratic frontrunner changed his mind on this fairly fundamental question.
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In the context of the interview, he was speaking largely about the positions of the Liberty Union party, which he had left some 15 years before the 1987 interview.

I don't really understand the point of your question. Somewhere along the line between being an idealist young person in a dead-end third party and a successful politician, Bernie's view became more nuanced and pragmatic. In the world of political hypocrites and flip-floppers, this slight shift seems pretty insignificant.
 
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Re: Sanders once suggesting the U.S. "nationalize" certain industries...
SuburbanTurkey said:
In the context of the interview, he was speaking largely about the positions of the Liberty Union party, which he had left some 15 years before the 1987 interview.

I don't really understand the point of your question. Somewhere along the line between being an idealist young person in a dead-end third party and a successful politician, Bernie's view became more nuanced and pragmatic. In the world of political hypocrites and flip-floppers, this slight shift seems pretty insignificant.
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The problem is, the point of view that he used to have is so far outside the political mainstream (and far beyond what the electorate will accept) that it could be damaging, even if he denounces his past policies.

And Sanders is doing himself no favors with his current policies and rhetoric... Medicare for All (i.e. government control of health care), and "Castro ain't so bad... people learned to read good" statements can be used as ammunition if people want to suggest his "nationalize everything" plans are still a goal of his.
 
Brainster said:
They changed it again. Biden is now at 31%, while Bernie is at 8%. No candidate winning before the convention is at 61%.
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this might be a fluke due to the many dropouts followed by endorsements; I doubt very much that voters will transfer their allegiance to Biden just because their former favorite asks them to.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
this might be a fluke due to the many dropouts followed by endorsements; I doubt very much that voters will transfer their allegiance to Biden just because their former favorite asks them to.
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They may not transfer their allegiance to Biden "Just because" he gets an endorsement from the former candidate.

But, its reasonable to expect voters who formerly supported one candidate to gravitate to candidates that hold similar views. (Perhaps not all of them will, but probably more likely than not.) That would mean more Buttigieg voters migrating to Biden (or perhaps Bloomberg) than migrating to Sanders.
 
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