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Democracy is in trouble....

Let's just note here that Trump-appointed and other Repub election officials say there was no significant fraud or misconduct associated with the 2020 elections.
https://www.vox.com/2020/11/13/21563825/2020-elections-most-secure-dhs-cisa-krebs
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2020-election-most-secure-dhs_n_5fadd55cc5b6370e7e3158ca
https://www.11alive.com/article/new...etter/85-753d4d72-df54-4019-a493-095f418050eb

Ex-AG Barr says the same thing.
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/01/9408...n-fraud-has-been-found-by-federal-authorities

At some point the actual facts have to outweigh vague suppositions and allegations.
 
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Bob001 said:
Let's just note here that Trump-appointed election officials say there was no significant fraud or misconduct associated with the 2020 elections.19896/barr-says-no-election-fraud-has-been-found-by-federal-authorities[/url]
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Or any election. We keep doing study after study, investigation after investigation, into the vague Right wing wankfantasy of buses of brown people and dead people using absentee ballots being used to outvote the good God fearing white folks and NOTHING EVER COMES OF IT.

- Loyola Law School looked at over a billion (billion with a b) votes cast over 14 year period and found... 31 credible cases of voter impersonation, and some of those might have been clerical errors.

- A five year vote fraud investigation by the George W. Bush administration (you know that liberal thinktank) turned up "virtually no evidence" of organized fraud. 86 convictions for various forms of voter fraud did come about due to this investigation and again many of these appear to be clerical errors.

- A 2014 two year investigation to voting in Iowa yielded only 27 credible cases and yet again tended more toward clerical errors.

- The Washington Post found an average of 4 documented cases of voter fraud out of 136 million votes cast.

- Dartmouth found no evidence of voter fraud in the 2016 election.

- The Secretary of State for the State of Kansas reviewed 84 million votes and found 14 cases.

- In 2011 Wisconsin charged 20 felons with falsifying voting records in an attempt to vote.

So yeah the recurring theme, from Republican, Democrat, Academic, and Press investigations all seem to agree that if you look at millions upon millions of votes you might find.... a few cases, most of which are clerical errors.

So yes anyone still going "But are we sure voting is secure enough?" is not acting as an honest agents in this discussion and almost certainly has an ulterior motive.
 
Abooga said:
....
The Brennan Center summarized almost 200 errors in election machines from 2002-2008, many of which happened repeatedly in different jurisdictions, which had no clearinghouse to learn from each other.[27] More errors have happened since then.
....
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12 to 18 years ago. Complaints about all-electronic voting resulted in most states moving to systems that provide secure paper trails. Almost 95% of ballots cast in 2020 were on paper or with paper backup.
Krebs explained that 82% of the ballots used in the 2016 presidential election had a paper record associated with them. In 2020, that figure increased to 95%.
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https://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-k...orithm-or-hacked-software-that-changed-votes/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-results-security-chris-krebs-60-minutes-2020-11-29/
 
Abooga said:
Not surprisingly "In the United Kingdom a 2016 government inquiry found that postal voting "was considered by some to be the UK’s main electoral vulnerability and to provide the 'best' opportunity for electoral fraud..." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absentee_voting_in_the_United_Kingdom)
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My point was that we have lower levels of security than the US yet no-one here cries about voter fraud (boundaries yes, voter fraud, no).

Our electoral security is purely based on ballot registration being sent by post and your name being ticked off when you vote - so presumably someone would shout if they didn’t get their registration or if they turned up to vote and were told they already had. Simple but seems to work.

Of course the Tories keep getting in but I put that down to Labour consistently picking the wrong leader (at least they have a half-decent one now) and most of the UK public being apathetic, thick as **** or both.
 
catsmate said:
Will you be providing actual evidence for this one of your claims?
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There has been plenty of evidicne for the vulnerability of electronic voting machines built up over the years.

Zig's angle is that
a) he didn't give a damn about Democrats won this election and the nutbar right claimed that this was due to voter fraud. Only then does he decide to talk about these vulnerabilities as a way to deflect criticism of these right wing nutbars.

b) He implies Biden won't do anything to fix the problem and therefor "Democrats are just as bad". The reality is Elections are a state responsibility so Biden can't do much in the first place and the most vulnerable systems are typically run by Republicans

c) he conflates previous security problems with electronic voting to this years election, where the nutbars are complaining about the insecurity of mail in elections, which have the paper trail the some electronic systems are missing. Indeed in 2018 Republicans in North Carolina were caught in a vote tampering scheme which shows this system is more secure than many of the electronic systems
 
No Other said:
ha ha what a presumptuous and inaccurate comment. But it is good to know that you are an "honest agent" that doesn't need to provide facts, your good word is enough.
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You should tell all those black people you know about this. I’m sure they’ll get a real kick out of it and declare you Winner of the Internet in Perpetuity Throughout the Universe.
 
Abooga said:
After reading all that, I´m not sure if it´s as secure as it needs to be. I can imagine there are ways to do some large scale cheating if sufficient means were employed. Having read about Randi´s exploits in discovering fraudsters should make one more aware of these things. Think of the lengths the JREF used to go to make the million dollar challenge foolproof... is this system equally robust? One way I can think of to make it safer would be if voters got to keep some sort of receipt, with a security code that they could check online (match with a public online list made of codes and votes) to see if their vote has been counted correctly.
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Providing the voter with a means of verifying that their vote was counted as they cast it is a proposal I have seen before, and I think it makes a lot of sense.
 
johnny karate said:
You should tell all those black people you know about this. I’m sure they’ll get a real kick out of it and declare you Winner of the Internet in Perpetuity Throughout the Universe.
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I have shared this site with many of my friends who are Black... and they laugh at the White people trying to act concerned when Whites don't have a clue how Blacks live. Voting is the least of their concern, they want action on jobs, action on proportional representation, action on less taxation, action on affordable healthcare, gentrification needs to stop, and most of all... make housing more affordable.

But none of that is discussed on this thread.
 
lomiller said:
There has been plenty of evidicne for the vulnerability of electronic voting machines built up over the years.

Zig's angle is that
a) he didn't give a damn about Democrats won this election and the nutbar right claimed that this was due to voter fraud. Only then does he decide to talk about these vulnerabilities as a way to deflect criticism of these right wing nutbars.

b) He implies Biden won't do anything to fix the problem and therefor "Democrats are just as bad". The reality is Elections are a state responsibility so Biden can't do much in the first place and the most vulnerable systems are typically run by Republicans

c) he conflates previous security problems with electronic voting to this years election, where the nutbars are complaining about the insecurity of mail in elections, which have the paper trail the some electronic systems are missing. Indeed in 2018 Republicans in North Carolina were caught in a vote tampering scheme which shows this system is more secure than many of the electronic systems
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I believe a paper record is a necessity. Entirely digital systems are potentially too easy to manipulate fraudulently. My preference is a hand-marked paper ballot with machine counting, preferably with hand counted samples for verification. This is how it is already done in Colorado, and probably many other places. It is also quite amenable to voting by mail.
 
CORed said:
I believe a paper record is a necessity. Entirely digital systems are potentially too easy to manipulate fraudulently. My preference is a hand-marked paper ballot with machine counting, preferably with hand counted samples for verification. This is how it is already done in Colorado, and probably many other places. It is also quite amenable to voting by mail.
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Just ditch the counting machines and do a paper ballot and hand count. It really isn't that hard and it encourages a larger number of more conveniently located polling stations.
 
No Other said:
I have shared this site with many of my friends who are Black... and they laugh at the White people trying to act concerned when Whites don't have a clue how Blacks live. Voting is the least of their concern, they want action on jobs, action on proportional representation, action on less taxation, action on affordable healthcare, gentrification needs to stop, and most of all... make housing more affordable.

But none of that is discussed on this thread.
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You should explain to your fictional black friends that pretty much all of those issues are directly tied to voting and that they should be more concerned about Republican efforts to make voting more difficult for them, and maybe consider what that tells them about Republicans.
 
No Other said:
I have shared this site with many of my friends who are Black... and they laugh at the White people trying to act concerned when Whites don't have a clue how Blacks live. Voting is the least of their concern, they want action on jobs, action on proportional representation, action on less taxation, action on affordable healthcare, gentrification needs to stop, and most of all... make housing more affordable.
....
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I don't know what point you're trying to make, but willful voter suppression tactics against black voters make it harder for them to have an impact in all those other areas.

And this "lower taxes" meme has to stop. A big part of where we are today is the result of massive tax cuts that started in the Reagan administration and have always been a Repub priority. Paying more to get more, and expecting the wealthiest to pay a share commensurate with the success our society has bestowed upon them, is not some radiclib fantasy.
 
Abooga said:
My solution would be to make a more tamper proof system Are you saying that it would hurt democrats? Are you claiming that democrats cheat?
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No, I claim you find problems where there are none and ignore actual real problems that are advantageous to party that you like.

Do you think you are first guy ever that tried to peddle "voter fraud omg" nonsense here on this forum?

Distracted1 said:
and right after an election the newly elected react the most defensively regarding the election process-for fear their wins will seem illegitimate.
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You are lying and gaslighting. All fraud noise we heard in last few months was from loser of this election.

Distracted1 said:
Now would be an ideal time for the Democrats to take the initiative on establishing some safe, fair, secure, accessible, and uniform voting process for the Nation. Instead, it seems, they must insist the system is perfect, and that any calls to address the obvious problems with it is just an attempt to discredit their win.
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More lying.

Distracted1 said:
Biden could address a real problem, whilst simultaneously demonstrating confidence in the legitimacy of his own win, and a willingness to reach out to the loonies who need to be brought back to a level of reasonableness, by making "election reform" a centerpiece of his admin.
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Oh, election reform is needed, but not kind of reform that authoritarian rethuglican degenerates want to ensure One True Party rule.
 
CORed said:
I've been of the opinion for some time that most of Republicans' claimed concern about voter fraud is really a dog whistle for non-white people voting.
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It's not really a dogwhistle when the are just actively saying it.

Again Republicans have admitted this, openly, that they don't feel they can win elections if certain people are allowed to vote. We keep having the discussion as if that cat is still in the bag.
 
CORed said:
I believe a paper record is a necessity. Entirely digital systems are potentially too easy to manipulate fraudulently. My preference is a hand-marked paper ballot with machine counting, preferably with hand counted samples for verification. This is how it is already done in Colorado, and probably many other places. It is also quite amenable to voting by mail.
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lomiller said:
Just ditch the counting machines and do a paper ballot and hand count. It really isn't that hard and it encourages a larger number of more conveniently located polling stations.
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I think you missed the part where we said that 95% of votes cast in 2020 were on paper ballots or machines that provided a paper record.
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-k...orithm-or-hacked-software-that-changed-votes/

Voting machines are not the problem. In fact, the Trumpers are against paper ballots if they are submitted by mail.
 
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johnny karate said:
You should explain to your fictional black friends that pretty much all of those issues are directly tied to voting and that they should be more concerned about Republican efforts to make voting more difficult for them, and maybe consider what that tells them about Republicans.
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Time and again you make things up like "fictional black friends". Your pathetic lying (... and saying fictional black friends IS lying) is serial. You think affordable housing is voter related??? Just like one of "fictional black friend" said... "You Whitey's play this game as if voting is the answer; the answer is actions."

Now that we have President Joe Biden in place and Congress is controlled by Biden Democrats (not to be confused with Bernie Democrats), those listed issues should go away.
 
Dave Rogers said:
How can it possibly be compatible with a secret ballot?

Dave
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Indeed. You can verify that a vote was cast (and there are various ways to insure this) but if you can connect the verification of the count itself with the person casting the vote, there is no way to guarantee secrecy that cannot be breached by some nefarious means.

Secure balloting requires not only that a vote be immune from alteration between the casting and the counting, but immune from tracking.
 
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