Democracy is in trouble....

[This is The End]

I don't think it's specifically right wing populism, just happens to be at this time. It's the same weakness democracy has always had, and that most systems have tried to put measures in to control: mob mentality.

I don't buy that completely.

That would be like saying mob mentality fueled race supremacy is just as bad as a mob mentality fueled rock concert!

I understand that you are just pointing out that the basis is mob mentality, but that doesn't suddenly make all things driven by mob mentality equally bad.

 

[Hellbound]

I don't buy that completely.

That would be like saying mob mentality fueled race supremacy is just as bad as a mob mentality fueled rock concert!

I understand that you are just pointing out that the basis is mob mentality, but that doesn't suddenly make all things driven by mob mentality equally bad.

I'm sorry, I think you seriously mis-read what I was saying. I made no general statements on whether mob mentality was good or bad. Just pointed out that it's always been the way to exploit a democracy. The "weakness" in the system. Additionally, I was specifically speaking politically; democracy as a government system. That's...not really there at a rock concert. Mob mentality at a concert or sporting event can escalate minor conflicts into major problems, or just be part of the fun. But in a government? Even if doing it for the 'right reasons', it's damn dangerous.

The so-called 'tyranny of the majority', fear of the excesses of populism and mob mentality, was a large part of all the checks and balances in our system (which have turned out to be a bit like wielding sheet-metal over the weak spots in tank armor...works okay until someone tries really hard to push through).

 

[lomiller]

ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

I think he is trying to weaken his perceived advisories, but it being dangerously short sighted. Democracies still drive most of the worlds prosperity so damaging them is ultimately going to harm Russia as well.


Worse he’s risking an unstable US and EU. Even an unstable UK could end up being dangerous. As stable entities western democracies are safe and predictable. If they are lashing out at random, sooner or later Russia will find itself in the crosshairs and the normal controls that would say “that’s not a good idea” gone we could and likely will see wars that would never occur when these countries were more stable.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think he is trying to weaken his perceived advisories, but it being dangerously short sighted. Democracies still drive most of the worlds prosperity so damaging them is ultimately going to harm Russia as well.

But why would that matter? His goal like other dictators is to maintain power not the best economy of the nation. Because he sees what happens when they lose control, Gaddafi being a recent example where he has the video of the result. Putin has watched that and knows that his life depends on this, a crappy Russian economy isn't so much of a problem to him personally.

 

[lomiller]

No the right is nothing to be proud of either. I'm not happy with what I see from either side. The left worries me a lot more because I disagree with so much more of what they want to do.

I really have no team to cheer for. None of us do so we just pick on each other.

You don’t even know what “The Left” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Democrats (AKA “The Left”) pretty much follow the data and promote polices that reflect the best available scientific and economic understanding. The right wing media wavers their arms around and yells socialism, and people like you abandon all mainstream science and economics for wack-a-doodle right wing version without a thought in the world.

How can you disagree with “The Left” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with mainstream scientific and economic knowledge?

 

[lomiller]

But why would that matter? His goal like other dictators is to maintain power not the best economy of the nation.

I disagree. IMO most modern dictators (certainly not all) start out from a sense of nationalism. The see democratic processes making decisions that in their minds weaken their country and set out to "fix the problem" by subverting the democratic process to get the decisions they want.

They are certainly happy for the personal profit they receive along the way, but probably view it as the reward for helping their country move in “the right direction”. I have no doubt that Putin is a Nationalist in this mode. He’s trying to “Make Russia Great Again”

 

[Giz]

You don’t even know what “The Left” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Democrats (AKA “The Left”) pretty much follow the data and promote polices that reflect the best available scientific and economic understanding. The right wing media wavers their arms around and yells socialism, and people like you abandon all mainstream science and economics for wack-a-doodle right wing version without a thought in the world.

How can you disagree with “The Left” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with mainstream scientific and economic knowledge?

You don’t even know what “The Right” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Republicans (AKA “The Right”) pretty much follow time proven polices that reflect American traditions. The left wing media wavers their arms around and yells fascism, and people like you abandon the center ground for wack-a-doodle left wing version without a thought in the world.

How can you disagree with “The Right” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with the mainstream

 

[Butter!]

This is why the country is dying.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

You don’t even know what “The Right” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Republicans (AKA “The Right”) pretty much follow time proven polices that reflect American traditions. The left wing media wavers their arms around and yells fascism, and people like you abandon the center ground for wack-a-doodle left wing version without a thought in the world.

How can you disagree with “The Right” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with the mainstream

Yep.
The Right follow the proven policies of cutting taxes and then spending more money and then act surprised when they add trillions to the deficit.

 

[Giz]

This is why the country is dying.

I try and have faith that the average American is much less of a blinkered partisan than the average poster here.

 

[Belz...]

Yep.
The Right follow the proven policies of cutting taxes and then spending more money and then act surprised when they add trillions to the deficit.

They're not surprised: they wait a bit and then blame the Democrats.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You don’t even know what “The Right” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Republicans (AKA “The Right”) pretty much follow time proven polices that reflect American traditions

What ones would that be, I mean clearly not the crap we have seen lately but sure maybe from the 1850s or so. Certainly against all the stuff from the 1950's and that commie liberal era.

 

[lomiller]

The fact is mainstream Republicans (AKA “The Right”) pretty much follow time proven polices

By proven do you mean proven failures?

that reflect American traditions.

Tradition for traditions sake never used to be the American tradition…

The left wing media wavers their arms around

What left wing media?

How can you disagree with “The Right” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with the mainstream

Easy. I follow mainstream science and economics then observe how Right wing policy ideas usually run completely counter to what I see there.

 

[mgidm86]

You don’t even know what “The Left” wants to do or why. That information is censored in the bubble you live in.

The fact is mainstream Democrats (AKA “The Left”) pretty much follow the data and promote polices that reflect the best available scientific and economic understanding. The right wing media wavers their arms around and yells socialism, and people like you abandon all mainstream science and economics for wack-a-doodle right wing version without a thought in the world.

How can you disagree with “The Left” when you have no idea what they are promoting and where it fits in with mainstream scientific and economic knowledge?

The fact is I see zero facts in your post.

I do see insults. What a shock. "People like me...". Such animosity! Insults and uncontrolled anger, brought to you by the left.

Yes the left are all skeptical n' stuff and do the right thing based on solid evidence. Talk about living in a bubble.

 

[luchog]

This is why the country is dying.

Democracy certainly is, and when it goes, so will civil rights.

North Carolina is no longer classified as a democracy

Between gerrymandering and voter suppression laws and outright fraud, there is precious little democracy left in that state.

When I Said North Carolina Wasn’t a Democracy, People Called Me Crazy. They’re not saying that anymore.

And it just keeps getting worse.

Other red states are working their way down that road as quickly as they can, but North Carolina is currently out in front of that trend, and a clear example of where most of the rest of the country is headed. Especially after this happened:

Supreme Court Rules Partisan Gerrymandering Is Beyond The Reach Of Federal Courts

According to that ruling, split strictly along liberal/conservative lines, the federal government has no business deciding the constitutionality of political gerrymandering by the states. States are free to draw up boundaries as they please, and exclude voters from the democratic process as a result.

Worse, the justices are fully aware of the results of their ruling, and either welcome it or just don't care.

Roberts noted that excessive partisanship in the drawing of districts does lead to results that "reasonably seem unjust," but he said that does not mean it is the court's responsibility to find a solution.

So, welcome to four more years of Trump and the end of American democracy, unless there is a very large and very effective backlash, which is unlikely to happen so long as the Supreme Court is dominated by arch-conservatives and crypto-fascists.

 

[theprestige]

The fact is mainstream Democrats (AKA “The Left”) pretty much follow the data and promote polices that reflect the best available scientific and economic understanding.

If this were true, Democrats would be pushing nuclear power as the here-and-now solution to global warming.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

If this were true, Democrats would be pushing nuclear power as the here-and-now solution to global warming.

No, they wouldn't.

 

[theprestige]

No, they wouldn't.

Q.E.D.

But seriously: Nuclear fuel has a high energy density. Its byproducts can be contained and sequestered without polluting the environment, and especially without contributing greenhouse gases. And there are vast reserves of the stuff. If the goal is to put a massive brake on greenhouse gas emissions, without also putting a massive brake on economic activity and degrading the quality of life of billions of people around the world (including millions who are right now working to develop an industrialized economy so that they can improve their quality of life), then nuclear is the way to go. Assuming you care about people and follow the best available scientific and economic understanding.

 

[luchog]

If this were true, Democrats would be pushing nuclear power as the here-and-now solution to global warming.

Have to agree with theprestige here. While the Democrats have a generally stronger support for science in most areas, in a few cases they have an unfortunate aversion to science which approaches that of the GOP. They have a long history of opposing nuclear power based on fearmongering over a couple of atypical and effectively irreproducible historical incidents, and an unfortunately strong support for "alternative" medicine and similar woo.

Nuclear energy is the only viable long-term solution to climate change and fossil fuel depletion which does not also require strict austerity measures or abandon the developing world. Unfortunately, neither side has the political will to push for the development of nuclear power stations -- Republicans because they are too invested in fossil fuels, and in maintaining power imbalances in the rest of the world; and Democrats because they are too invested in pandering to their fluff-bunny "New Age" anti-science lunatic fringe, or are still too mired in the mistakes of the past to acknowledge the technological advancements that have been made since then.

 

[lomiller]

If this were true, Democrats would be pushing nuclear power as the here-and-now solution to global warming.

Need I remind you that in the run up to the 2008 election that it was the Republican debate where de-funding the Department of Energy was suggested.

Mainstream Democratic policy is pretty reasonable wrt Nuclear Power. Nuclear is not ready to produce energy on the scale required to replace fossil fuels. Even if some of the problems are solved 20 years from now that's to late and it still doesn't make building reactors in developing countries a good idea. It can't and won't be more than a relativity small part of dealing with climate change and Democratic policy reflects that.

Republican policy on the other hand is an incoherent muddled up mess. I'm pretty sure the only reason any Republicans support Nuclear power is that they incorrectly believe Democrats are opposed to it. They want "small government" except for generating electricity where they like the biggest government solution imaginable, but they don't like spending money on the research required to actually do it. It doesn't make ane sense.