Split Thread DEI in the US

[W.D.Clinger]

Not sure what either of those have to do with DEI.

Guess I'll have to explain it to you.

And yeah, sure, you found one xenophobe guy who assumed they're foreigners, which has nothing to do with DEI either. But generally, whop-de-do you found one bigot. So what? Nobody said that they don't exist.

It is a matter of historical fact that the 10% rule was devised to increase diversity among students at the University of Texas. It is also a matter of fact that diversity is the D in DEI. Saying the D in DEI has nothing to do with DEI is not an intelligent argument.

And one bigot? I found and named two xenophobic bigots.

Or did you fail to notice that President Donald J Trump came to the defense of Bo French's racism and bigotry?

When a bigoted racist has as much power and influence as Donald Trump, dismissing it as just one bigot is downright silly.

Nor is Bo French just some inconsequential bigot. Bo French is a Republican candidate for the Texas Railroad Commission. Despite its name, that commission no longer has anything to do with railroads. It's the three-member commission that's in charge of (among other things) regulating the oil, coal, and uranium industries. That's 10% of the Texas economy.

And Trump's loyalty test is dumb, as expected from Trump by now, but again it has nothing to do with DEI. And was defeated by existing constitutional and legal protections, not by some DEI policy.

Trump's loyalty test is an illustrative example of how anti-DEI bigots, racists, and xenophobes have been braying about "merit" as cover for their attacks on true merit. Hiring based on loyalty to Trump or enthusiasm for Trump's executive orders is not a hiring policy based on merit. Yet the title of Executive Order 14170 claims the order is about RESTORING MERIT TO GOVERNMENT SERVICE.

That executive order was not restoring merit or reforming hiring practices. It was about creating governmental bias in hiring practices, at the expense of merit.

A lot of the anti-DEI rhetoric claims to be about merit. Much of that rhetoric is about merit in the sense of reducing the role of merit in hiring practices, and Executive Order 14170 provides a spectacular example of that.

 

[jt512]

I do not believe @arthwollipot meant to argue that unfair discrimination (definition 1) is not bad.

He is, of course, free to correct me on this.

What would "fair" discrimination look like in the context of DEI?

 

[Trausti]

What would "fair" discrimination look like in the context of DEI?

Whatever the priests of the new religion deem so.

 

[arthwollipot]

I clicked on that link he gave us, but it was pretty vague with loads of links to various programs.

It's in Australian Public Service Speak, which is a language all to its own, but it's pretty clear if you dig into it what the policy of the Australian Government is towards its staff. It's not at all vague - it's quite specific, supported by legislation, and implemented pretty effectively overall.

When I was an employee of the Australian Government, in fact, I had to do mandatory annual refresher course on workplace discrimination, bullying, inclusion, privacy, and a whole bunch of other things, so I know it pretty well. It's comprehensive and has many parts. Here's just one part:

https://www.apsc.gov.au/publication/commonwealth-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-workforce-strategy-2020-2024

There's quite a lot to it. You're not going to get a complete picture in just a few minutes.

 

[arthwollipot]

What would "fair" discrimination look like in the context of DEI?

Extending opportunities to marginalised communities that historically have not had access to them.

 

[Trausti]

Extending opportunities to marginalised communities that historically have not had access to them.

Which can be done without discriminating by race.

 

[jt512]

Extending opportunities to marginalised communities that historically have not had access to them.

If those opportunities are not open to any qualified person, regardless of their "community," then that would be unfair discrimination.

 

[d4m10n]

If those opportunities are not open to any qualified person, regardless of their "community," then that would be unfair discrimination.

So, for example, when Israel extends the right of return only to Jews but not to others who can demonstrate historical ties to the region?

 

[jt512]

So, for example, when Israel extends the right of return only to Jews but not to others who can demonstrate historical ties to the region?

Off topic.

 

[arthwollipot]

If those opportunities are not open to any qualified person, regardless of their "community," then that would be unfair discrimination.

Why the scare quotes around "community"? Are you unaware that historically marginalised communities exist?

 

[jt512]

So, for example, when Israel extends the right of return only to Jews but not to others who can demonstrate historical ties to the region?

"sigh" I thought you were one of the few here who knew the difference between right and wrong, between good and evil. Now you're skating on the thin ice that covers my overflowing killfile.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Yes. The merit argument is my argument. I know what my argument is, and what I mean by it.

I didn't say your argument, I said the argument.

I think you're misunderstanding the argument. Nobody is asking anyone to be the best in their field in the whole country, much less to be the next Einstein. Just the most qualified out of those who applied for the job.

Charlie Kirk’s ‘Black Pilot’ Remark Sparks Fury

"If I see a Black pilot, I'm gonna be like 'boy, I hope he is qualified,'" the activist and host of the The Charlie Kirk Show said...

He later added it was "not who I am, that's not what I believe," but said he was being made to react that way because he felt policies adopted by major companies regarding ethnic minorities meant less-qualified people were being given jobs with significant responsibility, including airline pilots...

All airline pilots are qualified, by law. So what did Charlie Kirk mean by 'less' qualified?

On his weekly panel discussion, ThoughtCrime, Kirk was discussing what he felt was the negative impact of diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) policies, which are designed to encourage people from ethnic minorities to pursue careers in industries that are not representative of them. Opponents argue that DEI gives favoritism to people based on race that undermines a meritocratic system in which only the most qualified are able to pursue roles.

How Charlie Kirk went from college dropout to Trump influencer

As he headed toward graduation, Kirk was denied entry into West Point - one of the most selective universities in America, with an acceptance rate of 12%. Kirk, however, claimed his rejection was because he was passed over for “a far less-qualified candidate of a different gender and a different persuasion.”

You can see why Charlie was upset. They chose a woman over him, when he was 'obviously' more qualified than she was. That's what DEI does - according to the typical opponent of it.

 

[arthwollipot]

That's because to DEI opponents, the default standard for qualification is to be a white cisgender heterosexual male. Being non-white, or LGBTQIA+, or disabled, or even non-Christian (especially in America), automatically makes someone less qualified than they are.

You know, white supremacy.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

It is a matter of historical fact that the 10% rule was devised to increase diversity among students at the University of Texas. It is also a matter of fact that diversity is the D in DEI. Saying the D in DEI has nothing to do with DEI is not an intelligent argument.

I'll refer you to my previous posts where I've said that my problem is with the equity, not the diversity or inclusion. I have no problem with the D or the I. I just have a problem with E standing for "equity" instead of "equality".

And one bigot? I found and named two xenophobic bigots.

OK, you found two. As I was saying, nobody said they don't exist. Hell, there are probably millions, or Trump wouldn't have won the elections. But in this case it's still rather outside the scope of DEI. I'm not aware of any DEI policies that demand equity and a representative sample for foreign students. If that were the case, you'd have to have more than 3 Chinese and 4 Indians for every US student

Trump's loyalty test is an illustrative example of how anti-DEI bigots, racists, and xenophobes have been braying about "merit" as cover for their attacks on true merit. Hiring based on loyalty to Trump or enthusiasm for Trump's executive orders is not a hiring policy based on merit. Yet the title of Executive Order 14170 claims the order is about RESTORING MERIT TO GOVERNMENT SERVICE.

So your argument is: because some used a term wrong, all are using it wrong? If only there were a textbook fallacy about exactly that

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Charlie Kirk’s ‘Black Pilot’ Remark Sparks Fury

Yes, I know Charlie Kirk's rhetoric. It's still another thing than I was saying in that answer and what I was answering to. He too wasn't demanding that someone be the best pilot on Earth, just that he be qualified enough to do the job. So, ironically enough, it actually is closer to what was presented in favour of DEI in this thread, than to what I was saying. Yes, he was making an unfair accusation, but even he wasn't demanding that his plane has Maverick and Iceman in the cockpit. The two goalposts aren't even in the same postal code.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, I know Charlie Kirk's rhetoric. It's still another thing than I was saying in that answer and what I was answering to. He too wasn't demanding that someone be the best pilot on Earth, just that he be qualified enough to do the job. So, ironically enough, it actually is closer to what was presented in favour of DEI in this thread, than to what I was saying. Yes, he was making an unfair accusation, but even he wasn't demanding that his plane has Maverick and Iceman in the cockpit. The two goalposts aren't even in the same postal code.

Would he said the same thing about a white pilot?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Would he said the same thing about a white pilot?

Charlie Kirk being a racist is a whole other topic than demanding someone to be the best on Earth, which is what I was answering to if you follow the conversation to where it started. I'll save you the trouble:

A just society doesn't reward people according to 'merit'. Everybody has a role to play and everybody benefits, including the majority who aren't the best in their chosen profession. Any system that requires people to be the best is a bad one. A good job is one that doesn't force people to push themselves to the limit.

 

[arthwollipot]

It doesn't matter. Whenever someone argues against DEI it's because they think a woman, a gay person, or a member of a racial minority is getting benefits that they think they deserve more.

Remember the phrase "DEI hire"? Has that term ever been applied to a white man?

 

[Abooga]

It doesn't matter. Whenever someone argues against DEI it's because they think a woman, a gay person, or a member of a racial minority is getting benefits that they think they deserve more.

Remember the phrase "DEI hire"? Has that term ever been applied to a white man?

How dogmatic. DEI is unquestionable, because whenever someone questions it, it´s because they are racists. What´s the point in skepticism when the world can be so easily black and white, right?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

It doesn't matter. Whenever someone argues against DEI it's because they think a woman, a gay person, or a member of a racial minority is getting benefits that they think they deserve more.

Remember the phrase "DEI hire"? Has that term ever been applied to a white man?

That's a silly argument, for the simple reason that no DEI policy ever said we need to hire more white men. Even when the same underrepresentation argument would apply, such as in the NBA or NFL. There is no reason to call someone a DEI hire, when there is no DEI reason for that to have happened.

It would be literally like blaming DEI or anti-DEI for foreign students, to reuse a recent example by someone else, when the DEI says nothing at all about foreign students.

Or to reuse my own example from earlier, it's the same reason I said the many foreigners of all races I've worked with before are not DEI hires. There is no DEI policy anywhere in the world that says you should hire more immigrants from India and who literally didn't speak one word of German and get them work visas. Any equity arguments ever apply to underrepresentation of the people already in the country, not to underrepresentation compared to their share of world population. Otherwise you'd have to have 17 employees from India for everyone from Germany.

One can make a xenophobia argument against that -- which I also don't support -- but blaming any form of DEI would be just stupid.