Defiling the National War Monument

BPSCG said:
Yes, there is nothing more admirable than a drunk desecrating the tomb of someone who died protecting that drunk's freedom. It's especially admirable when you consider there was no guard around the tomb and the story doesn't seem to say anything about anyone being arrested, prosecuted, or simply beaten up by an enraged crowd. What a brave guy; balls, indeed.
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Glad to see we're in agreement. Thanks for expanding and clarifying on that.
 
BPSCG said:
Yes, there is nothing more admirable than a drunk desecrating the tomb of someone who died protecting that drunk's freedom. It's especially admirable when you consider there was no guard around the tomb and the story doesn't seem to say anything about anyone being arrested, prosecuted, or simply beaten up by an enraged crowd. What a brave guy; balls, indeed.
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Don't you see that those soldiers died to preserve precisely that kind of freedom? Are you so willing to piss on their memory (figuratively) that you'd prohibit the free expression of pissing on their memory (literally)? What kind of fascist are you that you would strangle free expression that way? Why, such Hitlerian interpretation is no better than... than...

Oh, wait, got my notes mixed up. That was about burning a flag. My bad. Never mind.
 
Bandersnatch said:
Well, the problem is that they were unidentified.
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If it had happened in the U.S., they would have been unidentified, too. That is, until the DNA samples taken from the corpses came back from the lab.
 
Jocko said:
Don't you see that those soldiers died to preserve precisely that kind of freedom? Are you so willing to piss on their memory (figuratively) that you'd prohibit the free expression of pissing on their memory (literally)? What kind of fascist are you that you would strangle free expression that way? Why, such Hitlerian interpretation is no better than... than...

Oh, wait, got my notes mixed up. That was about burning a flag. My bad. Never mind.
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Well, two points:

Do you think it's inconsistent for me to oppose laws forbidding the desecration of the U.S. flag, while still wanting to literally kick the #$% out of some @#$% I catch burning one?

I suspect the worst thing these Canadian #$%s could be charged with is public intoxication and lewd behavior, or something like that, which would get them off with a $50 fine.

It's a little disturbing that a crowd would watch and laugh while this stupid, drunken stunt was going on.
 
BPSCG said:
Well, two points:

Do you think it's inconsistent for me to oppose laws forbidding the desecration of the U.S. flag, while still wanting to literally kick the #$% out of some @#$% I catch burning one?
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Not at all. Do you think it's inconsistent to acknowledge a common-sense truth like this, yet still concede that you will be sued and arrested for doing so?

For the record, I agree with you that an amendment is stupid, but it's a stupid reaction to a very real social problem that should be dealt with, somehow. I think ad hoc ass whuppings would be great, but that's neither here nor there.

I suspect the worst thing these Canadian #$%s could be charged with is public intoxication and lewd behavior, or something like that, which would get them off with a $50 fine.

It's a little disturbing that a crowd would watch and laugh while this stupid, drunken stunt was going on.
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Got that right. Every crowd has a few drunk @$$holes. Not every crowd is uniformly complicit in their actions.
 
BPSCG said:
Well, two points:

Do you think it's inconsistent for me to oppose laws forbidding the desecration of the U.S. flag, while still wanting to literally kick the #$% out of some @#$% I catch burning one?
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If it's someone burning their own flag on their property then yes.
If it's someone burning their own flag on someone else's property then stop it for the sake of fire safety.
If it's someone burning someone else's flag then maybe.
I suspect the worst thing these Canadian #$%s could be charged with is public intoxication and lewd behavior, or something like that, which would get them off with a $50 fine.
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That's fine. You will do more damage by taking his picture and releasing it to the local paper or post it near the site with some clever caption.
It's a little disturbing that a crowd would watch and laugh while this stupid, drunken stunt was going on.
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Perhaps. They could have been drunk as well.
 
BPSCG said:
If it had happened in the U.S., they would have been unidentified, too. That is, until the DNA samples taken from the corpses came back from the lab.
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I'm not so sure. It's sad, but it depends on the crowd and where it is. Take a vote by bumper stickers on your drive home tonight, and see how sure you are that righteous justice would be swiftly delivered. Here in Chicago, it's not a sure thing at all.*


*Excpet in my neighborhood, which still has rows of flags on each house like you saw on 9/12/01. That's part of why I live there.
 
Jocko said:
For the record, I agree with you that an amendment is stupid, but it's a stupid reaction to a very real social problem that should be dealt with, somehow.
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Is it? Is flag burning really a major problem in this country? When was the last time you saw it happen?
I think ad hoc ass whuppings would be great, but that's neither here nor there.
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Certainly not there, in Canada. In any case, though, I think that's all the solution that the "problem" requires.

Christopher Hitchens nails it:
[The Constitution] is of course designed to be amended and made more spacious, and many brave people fought and died to make this point. But it should never be burdened with anything trivial or transient, such as the zeal of certain Calvinists to ban alcohol, or the horror of certain other people at the idea of homosexual weddings. And this, it seems to me, is part of the reason why the so-called "flag-burning" amendment should never be allowed to waste any more congressional time.

...

No other country has such a terse and comprehensive statement of the case for free expression: considered important enough to rank first, and also to rank with the freedom of religious conscience. The jewel in the crown of the Bill of Rights does not say that Congress shall make no hasty or crowd-pleasing law abridging the right of assembly and protest. It stoutly insists that Congress shall make no such law.

Thus, it does not matter at all which opinion, or which "sensitivity," is being outraged. The uttermost limit of contempt for America, or American foreign policy, is evidently the vandalizing (and, mindful of the careful neutrality of the Constitution regarding religion, let us not say "desecration") of the stars and stripes. Shall we then say that expression is protected only until it reaches its symbolic limit? What could be more absurd? It is precisely because the flag is so important to some people that we must permit its trashing by others. To legislate otherwise would be to instate a taboo, and that is exactly what the First Amendment exists to forestall.

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If I find that I have stuck a flag-stamp on an envelope and accidentally put it on upside-down, I admit with slight embarrassment that I now start over with a new envelope. Nobody would ever notice my tiny disrespect, but I still won't commit it. However, the whole case would be altered if I was told that I had to get it right. The flag would no longer stand for the constitutional spirit that gives it meaning in the first place. It may once have waved over hellish plantations but it was also defended to the end by the Maine regiment at Little Round Top.
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BPSCG said:
Is it? Is flag burning really a major problem in this country? When was the last time you saw it happen?
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I think you've misunderstood me. I know flag burning is rare. I also don't think flag burning itself is the problem. IMHO, the problem is a pervasive and growing spoiled-brat mentaility that exists only to bite the hand that keeps it free. Maybe I'm just getting old, but it's either getting more common or those that believe in it are getting more vocal.

Beating the crap out of someone won't restore a burned flag. But it WILL impart a deeper understanding of what it means to live in fear to someone who's convinced his own country is the enemy. Tell them to imagine it's a night stick or a riot shield and it happened for no reason and with no warning.

Then tell me how awful America is.

ETA: Again, I think an amendment is the wrong answer. It's a bad solution; but the problem is real nonetheless.
 
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