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Deeper than primes

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we are using Cantor's construction method to systematically and explicitly define P(S) members


Why do you continue to trot this out as some great accomplishment of yours? Even if there were such a method and even if you were actually applying it properly, it is a very lame feat to produce P(S) given P(S) as a starting point.


How are those bijections coming along? Still nothing?
 
It's hard to clue Doron to spark up his vision generator funny, coz he is not fond of math of the college kind. That's why he misinterprets some descriptions, which may not be the best, but are used informally anyway, coz the listeners are familiar with the real deal. Take this "point coverage," for example. I'm positive that Doron never came across the concept of limits. Suppose that you have a line segment 6 units long and you divided the length by 3. The result is a line with 3 "sub-segments" each of them 2 units long. That's neat, but hardly enough to accommodate the needs of calculus, for example, where the x-axis is in R and needs to be divided into the smallest possible segments. To accomplish that, the domain line a is divided by n, such as n → ∞. The result is identical wherever limits are mentioned:

[lim n→ ∞] a/n = 0

Without knowing what is really going in there, a person suffering from math phobia may come to the conclusion that the domain line a has been divided into infinitely many line segments each of them having its length equal to zero and therefore a is "entirely covered by points." This is not so, otherwise it would be impossible to compute the area under any curve. But the term is used with no problems, coz the real meaning is pretty much understood by everyone hanging around math except by Doron. Even though he may accept the presence of "all points in the line," he insists on some space between them, as if his discovery was hotly contested by the views of the traditional math.

There is no way to learn to swim without getting into water, and that's exactly what Doron think is possible. He never poked the concept of infinity with his pencil, so he is not aware of certain realities that govern over the x-axis populated by points whose job is nothing else but to feed a function, and so fancy points need not apply there. Of course, there is only one set R, but Doron thinks that the angels will carry him to that set, so his fine Nike shoes wouldn't get dirty by stepping into the limits and other assorted tools of "mental exercise" used in Torture Chamber High.

Maybe he is not that good in the perpendicular reasoning, as opposed to his often-mentioned parallel reasoning. That's why he stays away from the Cartesian coordinates and all that high school math for commoners. Or maybe he doesn't want to get bothered by anything like that in his serene ascend to the Doronian metric space (formerly the ionosphere) of mathematical knowledge. :D


Yep, we have been over limits before with Doron and as usual he simply mistakes (again apparently deliberately) his own “direct perception” as something inherently meaningful, insightful and applicable.
 
You are the one that do not bother to ask yourself this important question.

Since you do not ask this question your mind did not deal with it.

Wait, so your claim is now that I’m “failing all along this thread to answer to the following question:” that was never asked?


Instead of your twisted maneuvers please simply try to answer to the following important question:

"How the set of all points along an arbitrary line segment are different from each other?"

The answer is still the same.

Location, location and location!!!


And to repeat a question you still fail to answer…


So by all means please explain to us the difference between changing and unchanging with “no past (before) and no future (after)”?

Yet, each point has its own exact location, because a point is the smallest possible existing element.

Not to mention that geometrically a point is the definition of an “exact location”.

This is not the case about a line, which is an ever smaller element exactly because it can't be both a line AND the smallest existing element.

To some degree it is, as a line can have no more than one exact location in any other dimensions than its extents. To try to put it more succinctly for you a line is at most a point in any dimensions but one.

Your weak reasoning still do not get the must have co-existence of the ever smaller elements AND the smallest elements as the minimal building-blocks of any set of more than one distinct point.

You simple lack of reasoning does not get that your “uncovered line segment” is your de-facto smallest line segment. If you don’t have a smallest line segment then neither do you have any “uncovered line segment”
 
1) From a qualitative point of view all is needed is one line (an ever smaller element) and one point (the smallest element).

A line is not “ever smaller” but line segments can be. As usual quality is simply what is lacking in your assertions. You do understand that “all is needed is one line” “and one point” are both quantitative claims as well as “(an ever smaller element)” and “(the smallest element)”, don’t you? So it seems all of your purported “qualitative aspects” are simply and specifically quantitative.

2) A set of more than one distinct point (which is a quantitative existence) exists as a result of the co-existence of the qualitative aspects.

Wait, so “A set of more than one distinct point (which is a quantitative existence) exists as a result of” you having a quantity of the “qualitative aspects” that you describe above as being specifically quantitative? The quality of your assertions continues to quantitatively diminish.

3) The co-existence is possible because both qualities have a one source, known as Singularity, which is the absence of any difference, whether it is qualitative or quantitative.

It would seem the only difference absent in your assertions is the difference between qualitative and quantitative and I have no doubts that its absence is as intentional as your deliberate misuse of the word singularity.


The Man's reasoning gets only the quantitative aspect of collections of distinct locations, without any understanding of their qualitative foundations, and Singularity, which is the absence of any difference.

You mean those “qualitative foundations” you describe above as being specifically quantitative and your “Singularity,” which is evidently just the absence of any difference between qualitative and quantitative?
 
Even if there were such a method and even if you were actually applying it properly, it is a very lame feat to produce P(S) given P(S) as a starting point.

Yes, exactly as one uses a construction method that those not miss any member of a given infinite set, like N set , Q set and now also P(N) set (or more generally, any P(S) set).
 
To some degree it is,
No, it can't be the smallest existing element exactly because only a point has this property, no matter what further degrees are considered.


You simple lack of reasoning does not get that your “uncovered line segment” is your de-facto smallest line segment. If you don’t have a smallest line segment then neither do you have any “uncovered line segment”
Wrong The Man, you simply unable to get the irreducibility of a line segment into a point (the smallest existing element) as an ever smaller existence, which is a present continuous state (no before\after states are involved) of parallel reasoning, that your serial-only step-by-step reasoning simply can't comprehend.
 
zooterkin, pi is an exact location along the real line, so there is no evaluation of pi.

On the contrary 3.14159...[base 10] is not pi exactly because any given smaller sub-line segment is irreducible into the smallest element, which is the point at the exact location of pi, along the real line.
You use a cumbersome comparison. In 1997, the approximate value of pi was computed to the precision of 51,539,600,000 digits. How was it done? Surely not by using pi=circumference/diameter. Pi is an irrational number, so you can't stick p/q into an infinite loop to watch the digits go by. Irrational numbers approach their limits through series and that means through repeated addition of some function.


f(x)
x=1

The upper limit over Sigma is infinity and that means the addition process never ends and that means in turn that there is no real exact/finite value of pi. That hardly matters, coz 3.14159... made of 1000000010000000000 digits, for example, can enter algebra any time it pleases as pi to render the area of a semicircle with r=1 as pi/2. (I've found pi sitting in the result of a problem that involved only straight lines, but there was infinitely many of them.)

Your proof should end with an axiom restated by Peano. It essentially says that 1, 2, 3, 4, . . . never ends. (Actually it may when it hits the symbol DUH.) Axioms are the terminal for travelling proofs.

Interpreting pi = 3.14159... as a symbol for the exact value of pi instead of for its value whose precision aproaches infinity is a sign of.... Well, enter your own terminology. "Weak, serial-only reasoning?" LOL.
 
A line is not “ever smaller” but line segments can be. As usual quality is simply what is lacking in your assertions. You do understand that “all is needed is one line” “and one point” are both quantitative claims as well as “(an ever smaller element)” and “(the smallest element)”, don’t you? So it seems all of your purported “qualitative aspects” are simply and specifically quantitative.
Do you understand that a quantitative-only view of a line segment and a point can't distinguish between their different qualities, and only a qualitative distinction between them enables one get the quantitative property of two elements?

Wait, so “A set of more than one distinct point (which is a quantitative existence) exists as a result of” you having a quantity of the “qualitative aspects” that you describe above as being specifically quantitative? The quality of your assertions continues to quantitatively diminish.
Furthermore, do you understand that no two points (the smallest existing elements) along a line segment are distinct from each other, without the different quality of the ever smaller element between them?

It would seem the only difference absent in your assertions is the difference between qualitative and quantitative and I have no doubts that its absence is as intentional as your deliberate misuse of the word singularity.
Here you demonstrate your inability to think beyond any type of difference, by getting Singularity as "One of many" concept.

You mean those “qualitative foundations” you describe above as being specifically quantitative and your “Singularity,” which is evidently just the absence of any difference between qualitative and quantitative?
Your quantitative-only view prevent the understanding of Singularity as the Unity beyond any difference, which is the source of both qualitative and quantitative differences.

It is all derived from your inability to be directly aware of the source of all possible expressions (mental, physical, or whatever), which is itself beyond any expression.
 
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Are you sure that one takes only one word from some post and also enables to understand what was written in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7067681&postcount=14925 post?

The word I quoted from your post was the only word responsive to my post, the one you quoted. The rest was just more of your confusion about bijections that don't exist.


Speaking of, how are those bijections coming along? You know, the ones between members of {} and its power set and {A} and its power set. It should be a piece of cake for someone as practiced as you. May we expect them soon?
 
Interpreting pi = 3.14159... as a symbol for the exact value of pi instead of for its value whose precision aproaches infinity is a sign of.... Well, enter your own terminology. "Weak, serial-only reasoning?" LOL.
epix, 3.14159...[base 10] < pi
 
The word I quoted from your post was the only word responsive to my post,

Evasion about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7067681&postcount=14925 noted.

EDIT:

I show an explicit construction method of all P(S) members, without missing any one of them, which enables to define a function of one-to-one and onto between all P(S) members and all S members (where S is a proper subset of P(S)) exactly as shown, for example, between N members and the members of the set of even numbers (which is a proper subset of N), or between the members of set Q and set N (where N is a proper subset of set Q).

In general, I show the consistency of Dedekind’s definition of infinite sets on all infinite sets, without exceptional.

jsfisher's reasoning is too weak in order to comprehend http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7066349&postcount=14908 .
 
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Be aware of the fact that no sub-line segment is reducible to the smallest existing element, which is a point.
You are forgetting to state the means of the reduction and the domain where the above action takes place and that opens the door for contradictions. If your proposition is true, then it should be conversely true as well. And so: If no line (1-dim object) is reducible to a point (0-dim object), then a point cannot be expandable to a line. But it can.
An inductive definition of dimension can be created as follows. Consider a discrete set of points (such as a finite collection of points) to be 0-dimensional. By dragging a 0-dimensional object in some direction, one obtains a 1-dimensional object. By dragging a 1-dimensional object in a new direction, one obtains a 2-dimensional object. In general one obtains an (n + 1)-dimensional object by dragging an n dimensional object in a new direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension
 

Hardly. The construction method you cherish so requires a bijection. As has been pointed out many, many times before, the required bijection does not exist. This is a point that you continue to evade.

Since you are unable to address that point, perhaps you could simply describe, step by step, this construction method. So far, all you have shown are examples in which you don't follow any set rules for construction. Instead, you claim to generate what you started with. It continues to be a lame feat.

EDIT:

I show an explicit construction method of all P(S) members
No, you didn't. You stepped through some examples without actually following any stated rules for construction.

...without missing any one of them
This was your assertion. You did not, cannot prove it to be true. And there's no point you even trying until you actually lay out the rules you are following.

which enables to define a function of one-to-one and onto between all P(S) members and all S members (where S is a proper subset of P(S)) exactly as shown
Except, you haven't shown a single bijection, yet. Not one. You claimed there were bijections for finite sets between the set and its power set. So, where are the bijections for {} and for {A}? You claimed there were bijections for infinite sets between the set and its power set. You bumbled through some arbitrary "rounds" then claimed you'd succeeded. Yet, there was no bijection to look at and no proof it was a bijection.

for example, between N members and the members of the set of even numbers (which is a proper subset of N), or between the members of set Q and set N (where N is a proper subset of set Q).
Irrelevant. You claimed bijections existed between the members of any set and its power set. Bijections between the whole numbers and the even whole numbers is trivial and unrelated to the problem before you.

In general, I show the consistency of Dedekind’s definition of infinite sets on all infinite sets, without exceptional.

jsfisher's reasoning is too weak in order to comprehend http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7066349&postcount=14908 .

When you manage to actually to demonstrate your own ability to express a complete, non-trivial reasoned thought, your criticism of others may then carry some weight.


[SIZE=+1]Again I ask: Can we expect to see your bijections between the elements of {} and its power set and the elements of {A} and its power set any time soon, or have you given up on this fool's errand?[/SIZE]
 
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No, it can't be the smallest existing element exactly because only a point has this property, no matter what further degrees are considered.

Again a line has exactly that “property” of a point in any number dimension other then its extents. Because it lacks the same extents as a point in those dimension.


Wrong The Man, you simply unable to get the irreducibility of a line segment into a point (the smallest existing element) as an ever smaller existence, which is a present continuous state (no before\after states are involved) of parallel reasoning, that your serial-only step-by-step reasoning simply can't comprehend.


Wrong Doron you’re simply unable to get that it has nothing to do with “the irreducibility of a line segment into a point” nor any of your “parallel reasoning” “serial-only step-by-step reasoning” and “present continuous state” nonsense. Your “uncovered line segment” is your de-facto smallest line segment. So if you don’t have a smallest line segment you don’t have an uncovered one either.
 
Do you understand that a quantitative-only view of a line segment and a point can't distinguish between their different qualities, and only a qualitative distinction between them enables one get the quantitative property of two elements?

So you still don’t understand that all “their different qualities” you described before were specifically and by your own assertions quantitative.

Furthermore, do you understand that no two points (the smallest existing elements) along a line segment are distinct from each other, without the different quality of the ever smaller element between them?

Again to have a smaller line segment means at least one point between the other two and if you are claiming no smallest line segment then your segment is de-facto completely covered by points.


Here you demonstrate your inability to think beyond any type of difference, by getting Singularity as "One of many" concept.

Here you again simply and deliberately misuse the word ‘Singularity’.

Your quantitative-only view prevent the understanding of Singularity as the Unity beyond any difference, which is the source of both qualitative and quantitative differences.

You’re the one that described your “qualities” as being specifically quantitative. If you don’t like your own view then change it. However I suspect that you will still oppose yourself as you remain the staunchest opponent of just your own notions.

It is all derived from your inability to be directly aware of the source of all possible expressions (mental, physical, or whatever), which is itself beyond any expression.

You just expressed what you claimed “is itself beyond any expression”. So by your own assertion you must be wrong in that expression and once again you remain the staunchest opponent of just your own notions.
 
You are forgetting to state the means of the reduction and the domain where the above action takes place and that opens the door for contradictions. If your proposition is true, then it should be conversely true as well. And so: If no line (1-dim object) is reducible to a point (0-dim object), then a point cannot be expandable to a line. But it can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension

When you drag the 0 dimension object, what is the unit of movement, is it an ever reducing line segment?

You can't deduce this unit of movement from the number of 0 dimensional objects which would fit alongside each other to make up the measurement of unit of movement.

As I imagine dragging this 0 dimensional object, I cannot judge its size. It could be infinitely small or infinitely large. I might have to drag an infinitely small object an infinitely large distance before I can detect that its has actually moved. This would result in the unit of measurement of movement being plus or minus infinity in accuracy.
 
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