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Deeper than primes

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Already done at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6737439&postcount=13850, where for any given S there is a diagonal object that is based
on the same form of S members, but it is not in the range of S members.

Please see also http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6782229&postcount=13979 .


That's all great (and by that I mean, no, it isn't), except nobody asked about the "diagonal object that is based on the same same form of S members." We asked you what member of {1,2,3} was missing.

Hint: No member of {1,2,3} is missing. It is complete. Your conclusion is wrong, and it is wrong because your premise and your logic are both bogus.
 
That's all great (and by that I mean, no, it isn't), except nobody asked about the "diagonal object that is based on the same same form of S members." We asked you what member of {1,2,3} was missing.

Hint: No member of {1,2,3} is missing. It is complete. Your conclusion is wrong, and it is wrong because your premise and your logic are both bogus.
You are wrong again. My premise is based on the diagonal that can be defined along S objects by using <0,1>^k(k=0 to ∞) general form for both S and P(S), such that {x} {} forms and 1-to-1 mapping are not used.

Your limited reasoning, which is based only on {x} {} forms (subsets) and 1-to-1 mapping, simply can't comprehend it.
 
Standard Mathematics is exactly an education method that does its best in order to reduce any given notion into a one and only one agreed description (what is callad "a well-defined ...").<b> Any other view that does not agree with the already agreed definition, is automatically marked as nonsense or "out of Mathematics" gibberish, cranky etc. … </b>
 
You are wrong again. My premise is based on the diagonal that can be defined along S objects by using <0,1>^k(k=0 to ∞) general form for both S and P(S), such that {x} {} forms and 1-to-1 mapping are not used.

Your limited reasoning, which is based only on {x} {} forms (subsets) and 1-to-1 mapping, simply can't comprehend it.

Given that we're all too stupid to understand, why don't you show us what happens when you follow that process for {1,2,3}?
 
Standard Mathematics is exactly an education method that does its best in order to reduce any given notion into a one and only one agreed description (what is callad "a well-defined ...").<b> Any other view that does not agree with the already agreed definition, is automatically marked as nonsense or "out of Mathematics" gibberish, cranky etc. … </b>
I describe the education method that does its best in order to reduce any given notion into a one and only one agreed description.

You are invited to show that my argument is wrong.
 
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I describe the education method that its best in order to reduce any given notion into a one and only one agreed description.

You are invited to show that my argument is wrong.

A definition is a definition. It is not up to you or anyone to agree/disagree or re-define. You always take this approach while in fact showing that you do not understand the definition.

You tell others that they do not understand what you are saying so they are in no position to say anything about it. You on the other hand obviously do not understand basic mathematical concepts (and their definitions) yet you feel you are in a position to say something about them, and even re-define them....
 
You still do not get it.

No 1-to-1 mapping (you call it association) is needed here, because both S and P(S) are based on the same <0,1>^k(k=0 to ∞) general form.

Can you solve this equation

c = <0,1>^5

where '=' means "is based?"

Btw, if |S|= 16, then 16 = 1+1+1+...+1 and there is no other partition.
If |P(S)| = 16, then there is one more partition Part = 1+4+6+4+1.

So S and P(S) cannot be based on the same "general form" that involves the html-like tag <0,1>^k, which is very likely some mutant of 2k.
 
Standard Mathematics is exactly an education method that does its best in order to reduce any given notion into a one and only one agreed description (what is callad "a well-defined ...").<b> Any other view that does not agree with the already agreed definition, is automatically marked as nonsense or "out of Mathematics" gibberish, cranky etc. … </b>
That's not exactly what the prevailing issue is here. Doron loves to invent structures, but most of the time he fails to adequately define the components of the structure. But he feels that "Emptiness is total," for example, is sufficient enough to let Emptiness join the phantasmagoric dance of arguments that OM stands on. Doron doesn't like definitions, coz they are restrictive and narrow his modus operandi and also may breed contradictions that can blow a house of cards off the table. Doron feels that peace and well-being should stand on strictly logical foundations and not be subordinate to the whim of God. That's why he invents and invents . . .
shalOM
 
You are deliberately missing the point: you don't understand something, and comment about it. You say we can not comment about things we do not understand. Why can't we do something that you do all the time?
EDIT:

Because going deeper than some paradigm and change it by a paradigm-shift means that one understands the current paradigm as an inseparable factor of going beyond it (of fundamentally change it).

By your paradigm, given some definition it can't be changed, and this inability to be changed is a paradigm of your community.

On the contrary I show that by given deeper notions of some definition, it is changed by a paradigm-shift.

Here is again a concrete example of such a paradigm-shift about collections of distinct objects.

By using <0,1>^k(k=0 to ∞) as a common form for both S and P(S), we show that any non-empty collection of distinct objects is incomplete, no matter if the collocation is finite or not.

<0,1> is the common notation of the forms, ^ is the power operation on some given collection, and k is the cardinality of a given collection of distinct objects, whether it is finite or not.

By generalization, S and P(S) are based on <0,1>^k form, where k = 0 to ∞, as follows:

By <0,1>^0 (2^0)
P(S)=
(
{0}
or
{1}
)
and
S=
(
{}
)

By <0,1>^1 (2^1)
P(S)=
{0,1}
and
S=
(
{0}
or
{1}
)

By <0,1>^2 (2^2)
P(S)=
{00,01,10,11}
and
S=
(
{
10,
11
} → 00
or
{
10,
00
} → 01
or
{
00,
11
} → 10
or
{
01,
10
} → 11
)

etc… ad infinitum … and as can be seen, no subsets are used and no 1-to-1 mapping between S and P(S) is needed in order to conclude that by using a common form for both S and P(S), we are able to show an object (the diagonal object) that has the same form of S objects but it is not in the range of S collection of distinct objects. Since P(S) is S w.r.t P(P(S)) exactly as S is w.r.t P(S), then also in the case of P(S) we are able to show an object (the diagonal object) that has the same form of P(S) objects but it is not in the range of P(S) collection of distinct objects, etc… ad infinitum.

By using <0,1>^k as a common form of both S and P(S), it enables us to understand S P(S) beyond the difference of subset\set structures, and we are able to do it without using 1-to-1 mapping ( where 1-to-1 mapping is actually needed exactly because we do not use a common form for both S and P(S) ).

Let PR=“This sentence has no proof” within a given framework.

If PR is true, then there is PR that has no proof within a given framework.

If PR is false, then it is provable.

If PR is provable then there is a proof that contradicts PR, so also in this case it is true that there is PR that has no proof within a given framework.

In the case of S and P(S), by using the diagonal method on S members, we define an object that has the same form of S members but it is not a member of S and we need P(S) in order to define its membership.

But also in the case of P(S) and P(P(S)), by using the diagonal method on P(S) members, we define an object that has the same form of P(S) members but it is not a member of P(S) and we need P(P(S)) in order to define its membership.

Etc. … ad infinitum.

It is equivalent to the case where some framework has true PR but it is not provable within this framework and we need to extend the framework in order to prove it, but then there is a true PR of the extended framework that is not provable within the extended framework, which has to be extended in order to prove it, but then ... etc. … ad infinitum.

--------------------------------------

Since by your paradigm, P(S) is defined as the collection of subsets of S (and in this case you need 1-to-1 mapping between the different structures of S and P(S) objects), and also by your paradigm a given definition can't be changed, then you by your own mind determine the inability to understand OM's new paradigm on this fine and important subject, which rigorously shows that any given collection of distinct object is incomplete, whether it is finite or not.
 
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Can you solve this equation

c = <0,1>^5

where '=' means "is based?"

Btw, if |S|= 16, then 16 = 1+1+1+...+1 and there is no other partition.
If |P(S)| = 16, then there is one more partition Part = 1+4+6+4+1.

So S and P(S) cannot be based on the same "general form" that involves the html-like tag <0,1>^k, which is very likely some mutant of 2k.
In other words, you ignore S P(S), so?
 
Doron doesn't like definitions, ...
Wrong epix.

I simply do not take definitions as totalities, which means that they can be changed by paradigm-shifts, including OM's definitions.
 
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EDIT:

Since by your paradigm, P(S) is defined as the collection of subsets of S (and in this case you need 1-to-1 mapping between the different structures of S and P(S) objects).
That's the reason why S and P(S) coexist.

If you read this

So if the size of a finite set of naturals is N, then the size of a particular combination (binomial) of the members of the set is 2N-1. If such sequence isn't bounded, then the negative unit is purged by the rules of calculus. Since sets are about counting and nothing else, Cantor added an empty set into the power set to satisfy [lim N → ∞]2^N - 1 = 2N.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6773665&postcount=13946

and didn't call it "turbulent nonsense" at the least, then there is a serious doubt that you grasp the purpose of the power set.

There is the family of Naturals living in the house. The family has 5 members, but they are not all home every time. Sometimes 1, 3, 4 is home

{1, 3, 4}

sometimes 3 and 5 is home

{3, 5}

and sometimes no one is home

{ }

That's why Cantor felt mighty obligated to include the empty set into the power set and not because of what my quote says.

The best chance to see all family members at home is the night time when all are sleeping. Take a look through the window...

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5}

There are all five of them in their beds. Or are they?

They are, only if the counting is done by someone who does not belong to the family of Naturals. But since no one can't count except natural numbers, there is obviously no 1-on-1 correspondence between the I(inside) set and the O(outside) set.

In reality, the family of Naturals is far more numerous then having only 5 members. So if it's true that there are 5 naturals in the house, then the counting was done by 6, 7, 8, . . . and {1, 2, 3, 4, 5} must be a branch/subset of the affluent Natural family.

So there is this infinitude of Naturals living in the house. It's around 3 am and every member of the infinite Natural family is home sleeping. Says who?

It's all matter of definitions. Here is a 1-on-1 correspondence between Evens and Naturals.

2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - ...
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - ...

You see that 2 and 4 are home sleeping, but at the same time they are outside the house looking through the window and do the counting.

And so, God shook the Tree of Knowledge and the Serpent fell to the ground. God cut off Serpent's head and tail and gave it to Adam and Eve as a good-bye present. Adam got "Se" and Eve got "t" from the cut out "Se-rpen-t." Both guys decided on having one shorter snake; they glued "Se" and "t" together and made "Set." They named the short snake Hilbert. And Hilbert spoke onto God:

"No one shall expel us from the Paradise that Cantor has created."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor

Who was Cantor?
It all depends on definitions.

Cantor believed his theory of transfinite numbers had been communicated to him by God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor

According to some prominent atheists, Cantor must have been a delusional loony . . .

So the "set" is actually subset of serpent.

And so, Doron, how many humans lived in the Paradise?

Wrong. There were four. Two ate from the Tree of Knowledge and two did the counting. LOL.

Next time, we can check other Bible-to-Real 1-on-1 correspondence. Or maybe not, since Ignorance is our Salvation.
 
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Then, for example,

100000... is the set {1},
101000... is the set {1,3},
111111... is the set of all integers, and
010101... is the set of even numbers.

Whoop-de-do!! Enumerable sets can be represented in this silly notation.

Let us follow your argument, jsfisher.

Whoop-de-do!! There is a diagonal form of this "silly notation" which actually proves that a collection of distinct subsets of S (known as the powerset of S) is incomplete, exactly because using the same "silly notation" for both S and P(S) it is shown that P(S) is incomplete w.r.t P(P(S)), P(P(S)) is incomplete w.r.t P(P(P(S))) , etc … ad infinitum (the set of all powesets does not exist).

Here is a good example taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_set , which follows jsfisher's argument.

For the whole power set of S we get:
• { } = 000 (Binary) = 0 (Decimal)
• {x} = 100 = 4
• {y} = 010 = 2
• {z} = 001 = 1
• {x, y} = 110 = 6
• {x, z} = 101 = 5
• {y, z} = 011 = 3
• {x, y, z} = 111 = 7
As can be seen P(S) is represented by the binary "silly notation":

• { } = 000
• {x} = 100
• {y} = 010
• {z} = 001
• {x, y} = 110
• {x, z} = 101
• {y, z} = 011
• {x, y, z} = 111

where S is some collection of 3 distinct binary "silly notations" out of
P(S) collection of 8 distinct binary "silly notations".
 
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