Deeper than primes

Status
Not open for further replies.
No, |{}| = 0 , where 0 is the cardinality of the existence of the members of {}.

Hmmm, let's check that with the facts. In a previous post you said:
{} exists independently of the existence of members and its cardinality is exactly .

So, yes, you did make the absolutely bogus claim that |{}| = .

As for all the other bogus claims you have made, deny them though you may, these are all statements you did in fact make. Don't you recall "proving" conclusively that |Q| = |R|? I do find it curious, though, that some of the more outrageous claims you didn't deny making.
 
Yes I can if the measurement unit refers to the existence of the measured thing, and this is exactly what Cardinality is.

In the case of Standard Math this measurement of existence is arbitrarily limited to the first level of existence of the measured members of Set.

And it is arbitrarily limited exactly because Standard Math take this partial case as if its is the general case of Cardinality.

Look, maybe it would be easier for you to think of Math as a programing language. The things you can or can not do are governed by the compiler. What you are saying would simply not compile. For example think of the following program:

Set a;

Set.getClass().size() // this would not compile because size() is not a method of Class but rather of Set.

You can do:

print(a.size());

but you will get NullPointerException because "a" is not referring to any "existing" Set object - it was not instantiated.

You can do:

a = new Set();

"a" is now associated with the empty set {}. if you do print(a.size()) you will get "0".

now you can do:

a.add(1);

and you will get for "print(a.size())" the result "1".

you can also do:

b = new Set();

b.add(2);
b.add(3);

a.add(b);

if you do "print(a.size())" you will get "2".

No if you don't like what the compiler is doing, write your own compiler - that would translate into defining your own Math.

Be careful though - for programming you need to be very specific, otherwise you will get unexpected results or your programs will simply not compile.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm, let's check that with the facts. In a previous post you said:


So, yes, you did make the absolutely bogus claim that |{}| = .

All you have to get is the stage's independent existence form the possible existence of players on it.
 
When you say "non-locality" do you mean "absolutely everything" -- or something to that effect?

Please think about Non-locality as a stage that exists whether thare are players on it, or not.

Any amount (finite or not) of players is local with respect to the stage, where the stage is non-local with respect to any amount (finite or not) of players.


Here is the abstract of my last paper ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/17504323/WZATRP8 ):

An original observation of Zeno's Achilles\Tortoise Race Paradox is introduced. It leads to novel understanding of the foundations of mathematical science, especially by observing Non-locality and Locality as its fundamental building-blocks. Locality is precisely its own formula, thus this formula cannot be used as a solution for anything else but its own unique case. Non-locality is a formula that can be used as a solution for more than one case. Locality on its own is total isolation.

Non-locality on its own is total connectivity. No total realm is researchable. A researchable realm only exists if Non-locality and Locality are not total. Under Non-locality\Locality Linkage we get a universe where Non-locality is its common law; this is expressed by many Localities that are gathered by the common law, but can never be Non-local, as is the common law. Non-locality\Locality Linkage can be perceived as "The Tree of Knowledge", which is the one organic and ever complex (and therefore non-entropic) realm that enables one, and only one simple law (Non-locality), to be the common knowledge of many Local expressions of it (we show that Leibniz Chaitin Complexity [11] Challenge is the organic incompleteness of Non-locality\Locality Linkage).

[11] Cristian S. Calude Randomness and Complexity, From Leibniz to Chaitin,
Publisher: World Scientific Publishing Company, date: Oct 2007,
ISBN: 978-981-277-082-0 978-981-277-082-8
 
Last edited:
Look, maybe it would be easier for you to think of Math as a programing language. The things you can or can not do are governed by the compiler. What you are saying would simply not compile. For example think of the following program:

Set a;

Set.getClass().size() // this would not compile because size() is not a method of Class but rather of Set.

You can do:

print(a.size());

but you will get NullPointerException because "a" is not referring to any "existing" Set object - it was not instantiated.

You can do:

a = new Set();

"a" is now associated with the empty set {}. if you do print(a.size()) you will get "0".

now you can do:

a.add(1);

and you will get for "print(a.size())" the result "1".

you can also do:

b = new Set();

b.add(2);
b.add(3);

a.add(b);

if you do "print(a.size())" you will get "2".

No if you don't like what the compiler is doing, write your own compiler - that would translate into defining your own Math.

Be careful though - for programming you need to be very specific, otherwise you will get unexpected results or your programs will simply not compile.
Non-locality is the existing thing that enables the relations between things.

In your example this thing is called compiler and this concept is independent of the existence of any particular programming language, for example:

Programming language = Compiler(objects and syntax)

Again, the stage (the compiler, in this case) exists independently of the players (objects and syntax, in this case).

Without the independency of this concept, no Programming language works.

Some analogy:

The writer exists independently of the existence of his stories.

One of these stories can be called the empty story (a book with empty pages = Compiler(), where the Compiler is the existing writer).

The existence of the writer is greater than any existing amout of his stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty :
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."
"The question is," said doronshadmi, "which is to be the writer?" (his objective existence, not his subjective opinions).
 
Last edited:
Still lurking, holding my tongue, and slapping my hand that wants to type out that quotation of Humpty Dumpty in Through The Looking Glass,

Have a happy B-Day Fisher.

Hi Apathia,

Let us try this analogy:

Locality on its own is total isolation (think about a seed).

Non-locality on its own is total connectivity (think about a fruitful ground).

No total realm is researchable (as long as the seed and the fruitful ground are no linked, there is nothing beyond the independent existence of each one of them).

A researchable realm exists only if Non-locality and Locality are not total (there is a linkage between the seed and the fruitful ground).

Under Non-locality\Locality Linkage we get a universe where Non-locality is its common law; this is expressed by many Localities that are gathered by the common law, but can never be Non-local, as is the common law (there are many expressions of the seed, but no amount of expressions fully expresses the fruitfulness of the ground and there is always a room for more expressions).

Now think about seed as at least 0-dim element, and think about the fruitful ground as at least 1-dim element.

Both 0 and 1 dims (or more generally: n=1 to ∞ , k= 0 to n-1 , where n is the ground and k is the seed) are based on the abstract concept of Dimension, that enables the linkage between them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty :
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses,
And all the king's men,
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

No amount of k is n.
 
Last edited:
Non-locality is the existing thing that enables the relations between things.

In your example this thing is called compiler and this concept is independent of the existence of any particular programming language, for example:

Programming language = Compiler(objects and syntax)

Again, the stage (the compiler, in this case) exists independently of the players (objects and syntax, in this case).

Without the independency of this concept, no Programming language works.

Some analogy:

The writer exists independently of the existence of his stories.

One of these stories can be called the empty story (a book with empty pages = Compiler(), where the Compiler is the existing writer).

The existence of the writer is greater than any existing amout of his stories.

How can a complier exist without referring to a programming language. Can you give me an example in a programming lanaguage for that? you can use a programming language of your preference (just don't use Lisp, because it has no compiler...)
 
How can a complier exist without referring to a programming language. Can you give me an example in a programming lanaguage for that? you can use a programming language of your preference (just don't use Lisp, because it has no compiler...)

Look:

The existence of the writer is greater than any existing amout of his stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty :
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."
"The question is," said doronshadmi, "which is to be the writer?" (his objective existence, not his subjective opinions).

You are looking only on some technical difference between batch compiled programs or real-time interpreted programs.

In both cases there exists the compiler, which is exactly YOU, no matter what compilation style (batch or real-time) YOU are using as an agent.
sympathic said:
How can a complier exist without referring to a programming language.
How can a set exist without referring to members.

It is a fact that Set exists no matter if it has or does not have members, exactly as a stage exists independently of the existence of the player on it.
 
Last edited:
Look:

The existence of the writer is greater than any existing amout of his stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty :

"The question is," said doronshadmi, "which is to be the writer?" (his objective existence, not his subjective opinions).

You are looking only on some technical difference between batch compiled programs or real-time interpreted programs.

In both cases there exists the compiler, which is exactly YOU, no matter what compilation style (batch or real-time) YOU are using as an agent.

How can a set exist without referring to members.

It is a fact that Set exists no matter if it has or does not have members, exactly as a stage exists independently of the existence of the player on it.

A stage is not a set. A set is defined as a group of members. You can not refer and make any assertions regarding it without referring to its members. Mathematics is like a programming language - you have to be precise and consistent when speaking in this language otherwise what you say does not make any sense and has no utility.

If you say that a you have an example for a compiler that is not associated with any programming language please provide me with the code for this compiler. Answer to the point, like you ask of others.
 
Doron,

All the words you use are like those melting watches in Dali's painting.
Fine, but to communicate with others you need to define and settle the usage.
When you use a word in a way that seriously departs from recognized usage, you need to admit what you are doing and clearly state your unique usage.
You don't need to tell others their usage is wrong.

You are using the word "Cardinality" in a way that is very unfamiliar to English speakers. It's a word associated with numerality and "how many?"
You are using it to primarily speak of what's present on the "stage."

This is such a departure from the ordinary meaning of the term that people can't but be confused and misunderstand.

You are The Master of what you write. But if you are writing for others, you have to be able to write for your reader.

The potential for confusion runs very deep here, because numbers are terms of numerality. We commonly use numbers to designate quantities or order in a series.

Your Organic Numbers designate the presence of entities prior to quantity.

At that point you need to be very careful in how you pare your words, for your reader's sake.

Because its very easy to misunderstand your parallel aspects of organic number for .. well, numbers, denoting quantity.

When it comes to getting your idea across, Humpy's attitude is conterproductive.
 
Last edited:
Doron,

All the words you use are like those melting watches in Dali's painting.
Fine, but to communicate with others you need to define and settle the usage.
When you use a word in a way that seriously departs from recognized usage, you need to admit what you are doing and clearly state your unique usage.
You don't need to tell others their usage is wrong.

You are using the word "Cardinality" in a way that is very unfamiliar to English speakers. It's a word associated with numerality and "how many?"
You are using it to primarily speak of what's present on the "stage."

This is such a departure from the ordinary meaning of the term that people can't but be confused and misunderstand.

You are The Master of what you write. But if you are writing for others, you have to be able to write for your reader.

The potential for confusion runs very deep here, because numbers are terms of numerality. We commonly use numbers to designate quantities or order in a series.

Your Organic Numbers designate the presence of entities prior to quantity.

At that point you need to be very careful in how you pare your words, for your reader's sake.

Because its very easy to misunderstand your parallel aspects of organic number for .. well, numbers, denoting quantity.

When it comes to getting your idea across, Humpy's attitude is conterproductive.

I am using the "how many?" question and so does Standard Math.

Standard Math puts arbitrary limitations on this question, for example:

This framework is based on arbitrary limitations:

|{{a,b,c,…}}|=|{{}}|=|{{{}}}|=|{{{{}}}}|= …= 1 and it can't deal with total-existence, and can't deal with Complexity, because the considered is limited to the first level of existence of the measured objects.

My framework does not use these arbitrary limitations, for example:

|{{}}|= 0+1 = 1 < (= the cardinality of the stage).

|{{{}}}|=|{{},{}}|= 0+1+1=0+1+0+1=2 < (= the cardinality of the stage).

|{{},{{}}}|=|{{{{}}}}|=0+1+0+1+1=0+1+1+1=3 < (= the cardinality of the stage).

|{{a,b,c,…}}| = |{N}| = |N| + 1 < (= the cardinality of the stage).

It has to be stressed that it is possible to use any limitations that we wish on the existence of things, but then it must be clearly understood that our framework is a partial case of the general existence of things.

The problem with Standard Math is that it claims that its limitations are actually the general case, and this is exactly the problem that I expose at the foundations of the Standard approach of the mathematical science.

As a result it is clear that Standard Math is nothing but a partial case of the mathematical science, and I show this fact right at the foundations of this science.

Apathia there are no half-ways or short-cuts to paradigm-shifts and what I show in this thread is not less than a paradigm-shift.

In order to get a paradigm-shift one simply has no choice but to go beyond his current paradigm of already agreed definitions, terms, axioms etc… and explore unfamiliar frontiers. It is defiantly not an easy task but, as I said, there are no half-ways or short-cuts here, and a lot of guts are needed in order to do that, because one finds himself unarmed and without his familiar knowledge, in a foreign space.
 
Last edited:
I am using the "how many?" question and so does Standard Math.

Technically, cardinality deals with a measure of how big for a set, and it is a relative measure that uses mapping to establish relative order.

Standard Math puts arbitrary limitations on this question

What Mathematics does with cardinality is neither arbitrary nor limited. You simply want it to be something it isn't. Stop trying to disprove a definition.

Your assertion is as empty as claiming standard physics puts arbitrary limits on length because it is not a measure of frequency (which it could be, but only through a rather contorted sequence of misunderstandings and twisted meanings. Care to give it a try, Doron?)

...for example:

This framework is based on arbitrary limitations:

|{{a,b,c,…}}|=|{{}}|=|{{{}}}|=|{{{{}}}}|= …= 1 and it can't deal with total-existence, and can't deal with Complexity, because the considered is limited to the first level of existence of the measured objects.

Why does it surprise you that a measure that is specifically not a measure of complexity might not measure complexity?

My framework does not use these arbitrary limitations

No, you just misunderstand and misconstrue things to the point of contradiction, inconsistency, and beyond.

Nonetheless, for your framework, if you'd like a measure of complexity or whatever, knock yourself out. Have at it. Make up some new measure (just like you've made up everything else in your framework). But stop trying to claim -- most incorrectly -- that that is what an established measure really is. It isn't, and your claim that it is sounds most idiotic.

...In order to get a paradigm-shift one simply has no choice but to go beyond his current paradigm of already agreed definitions, terms, axioms etc… and explore unfamiliar frontiers. It is defiantly not an easy task but, as I said, there are no half-ways or short-cuts here, and a lot of guts are needed in order to do that, because one finds himself unarmed and without his familiar knowledge, in a foreign space.

Doron, rather than spending all your time trying to redefine things, why not trying to find an actual use for your beloved paradigm-shifted new mathematics?

Nothing is to be gained trying to undefine existing Mathematics through your extensive misunderstandings. Leave Mathematics alone. If you want something different, make up something new. It does you no good to argue with a definition. That's just lame.
 
It has to be stressed that it is possible to use any limitations that we wish on the existence of things, but then it must be clearly understood that our framework is a partial case of the general existence of things.

Thank Goodness!

Now some questions:

Here's the Organic Numeral Three:

3

It's a tree of potential "parallel"/"serial" configurations.
In parallel just being there "existance"
In serial the answer to the question of quantity.

If we deal with the option that all it's elements are serial (Let's make that limitation, though we know it's not that totality of the Organic Number),
Then its exactly the three of traditional mathematics.
It's merely serial, merely a quantity.

But let's say we choose the option on the tree of its elements being all parallel (another limitation, of course).

Do we speak of this numeral 3 as a quantity?
Is it the serial quantity 3 in a non-local locality?
Am I getting serial and parallel confused together in a mental mush?
 
Thank Goodness!

Now some questions:

Here's the Organic Numeral Three:

3

It's a tree of potential "parallel"/"serial" configurations.
In parallel just being there "existance"
In serial the answer to the question of quantity.

If we deal with the option that all it's elements are serial (Let's make that limitation, though we know it's not that totality of the Organic Number),
Then its exactly the three of traditional mathematics.
It's merely serial, merely a quantity.

But let's say we choose the option on the tree of its elements being all parallel (another limitation, of course).

Do we speak of this numeral 3 as a quantity?
Is it the serial quantity 3 in a non-local locality?
Am I getting serial and parallel confused together in a mental mush?

Think about a complex thing like your body.

Is the number of cells of your body gives you the knowledge about the parallel\serial linkage among the cells?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom