Deeper than primes

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You use the wrong equation:

Non-definable = Non-researchable


The right equations in this case are:

Emptiness = too weak for research (the definition of Emptiness)

Fullness = too strong for research (the definition of Fullness)

You simply show us that Emptiness or Fullness are beyond your abstract perception.


No Doran you are the one who claims such ‘extreme’ states are ‘not researchable’, thus your ‘definitions’, by your own assertions, are without any basis and that your persistent lack of research is beyond your perception.
 
At this thread I am talking about the form that enables syntax or definitions, in the first place.

This form is at least symbols (Elements) AND memory (Relation).


Look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4538485&postcount=2265 .


Doron memory is irrelevant without something useful to remember. So you are just going to ignore or just not remember the question I just asked about a language with constantly changing definitions and syntax (much like your notions). Memory is of no use in that circumstance since there is nothing useful to remember about that language. First one needs established and consistent definitions and syntax in order to have anything useful to remember. You are putting the cart (memory) before the horse (something that is useful to remember).
 
Doron memory is irrelevant without something useful to remember.

Useful is at least Elements (what you call something) AND Relation (memory of them).


Beads (what you call something) without String (memory) is irrelevant.

String (memory) without Beads (what you call something) is irrelevant.

String (memory) AND Beads (what you call something) is relevant.

You do not get what Form is (as clealry shown in http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/UR.pdf ).
 
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No Doran you are the one who claims such ‘extreme’ states are ‘not researchable’, thus your ‘definitions’, by your own assertions, are without any basis and that your persistent lack of research is beyond your perception.

Again The Man,

You simply show us that Emptiness or Fullness are beyond your abstract perception.
 
Useful is at least Elements (what you call something) AND Relation (memory of them).


Beads (what you call something) without String (memory) is irrelevant.

String (memory) without Beads (what you call something) is irrelevant.

String (memory) AND Beads (what you call something) is relevant.


Ah, so perhaps you are learning something. What one might call something is irrelevant if one can not remember what that name referred to. Likewise remembering what something was called is irrelevant if it is called something different now. So your mutually independent ‘element’ or ‘symbols’ are in fact dependent on ‘memory’ what you now call ‘relation’. Welcome Doron to the mutually dependent world of language.

As a side note ‘relations’ and even ‘memory’ are also both just ‘elements’ of a language, but I am sure most here already understand that.
 
Ah, so perhaps you are learning something. What one might call something is irrelevant if one can not remember what that name referred to. Likewise remembering what something was called is irrelevant if it is called something different now. So your mutually independent ‘element’ or ‘symbols’ are in fact dependent on ‘memory’ what you now call ‘relation’. Welcome Doron to the mutually dependent world of language.

As a side note ‘relations’ and even ‘memory’ are also both just ‘elements’ of a language, but I am sure most here already understand that.

The Man,

Mutual AND independent is not totally-Mutual and not totally-independent.

Mutual AND independent is the intermediate state between totally-Mutual and totally-independent.

The definition of the totally-mutual is "too strong for research".

The definition of the totally-independent is "too weak for research".

The definition of the Mutual AND Independent is "the researchable".

You still use the wrong equation:

Non-researchable = Non-definable

Since you don't get these definitions and you are using the wrong equation, you don't get this:


doronshadmi said:
The non-local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it). Also a local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it).

Maximum entropy exists in both non-locality and locality, but they are opposite by their self nature, so if non-locality and locality are associated, then a non-entropic domain is created.

The history of such a domain is written by symmetry, where at the first stage symmetry is so strong that no outcome of this domain has a unique identity, and all we have is a superposition of identities.

Symmetry is collapsed because the opposite properties of non-locality and locality are expressed more and more until each local ur-element has a unique identity of its own.

This uniqueness, which is anti-entropic by nature, cannot exist without the association between the non-local and the local.

Opposite properties do not contradict each other, if they are based on NXOR connective.

A NXOR connective enables the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are associated, and associated realms have more than one entropy level).

A XOR connective does not enable the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are isolated, and isolated realms have maximum entropy).


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4083359&postcount=1
 
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As a side note ‘relations’ and even ‘memory’ are also both just ‘elements’ of a language, but I am sure most here already understand that.

In that case you call to some elements 'relation' or 'memory', where _________ is used as the relator ('relation' or 'memory') of these elements.

REI is used.
 
The Man,

Mutual AND independent is not totally-Mutual and not totally-independent.

Mutual AND independent is the intermediate state between totally-Mutual and totally-independent.

The definition of the totally-mutual is "too strong for research".

The definition of the totally-independent is "too weak for research".

The definition of the Mutual AND Independent is "the researchable".


Again doron try actually researching the applications of the term ‘mutually independent’ it is not ‘mutual AND independent’ as you assert. ‘Mutually’ is an adverb form of ‘mutual’ which means that in this case it is modifying the adjective ‘independent’ which means that it is a mutual modification of independent or a reference to an independence that is, well, mutual between two or more things.

For example we can have information without memory, it is just that information is not very useful without the ability to recall or remember it. So although information is not dependent on memory its usefulness is. On the other hand memory is specifically the recording of information so that it can be recalled at some later time. Thus memory is specifically dependent on information, without information there is no memory as information is a explicate part of memory. So although information is not dependent on memory, memory is dependent on information and the two are not mutually independent or independence is not mutual between them.


You still use the wrong equation:

Non-researchable = Non-definable


No Doron I am not using an ‘equation’ I am using your assertions. The ones where you make assertions about aspects you claim to be ‘not researchable’. If you do not like the implications of your assertions, well, make better assertions or at least make ones that you do not claim yourself to be unsupportable within your own notions.

Since you don't get these definitions and you are using the wrong equation, you don't get this:


No Doron you do not ‘get it’ and just spew out a bunch of entropic babble expressing the symmetry of your lack of understanding in areas beside just math and language.

Additionally now you’re making claims about the ‘entropy’ of the ‘extremes’ you claim to be ‘not researchable’. Doron if it wasn’t for direct contradiction would you have anything to say at all?
 
In that case you call to some elements 'relation' or 'memory', where _________ is used as the relator ('relation' or 'memory') of these elements.

REI is used.

Doron, you can underline whatever you want to keep your 'REI' 'Wildly Fictitious Fantasy' going. When you’re ready to stop cheating yourself, please let us know.
 
The Man said:
mutual between two or more things.

Thank you for using REI, have a pleasant flight.
The Man said:
Again doron try actually researching the applications of the term ‘mutually independent’ it is not ‘mutual AND independent’ as you assert.

Wrong.

Mutually independent is the intermediate state, which is not totally-mutual (total connectivity) and not totally-independent (totally-isolated).

The Man said:
memory is dependent on information and the two are not mutually independent or independence is not mutual between them.
Wrong.

Information is REI's result in many states of self-awareness, starting by non-aware REI and ending by aware REI.

For better understanding of this notion, please look at http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMI2.pdf (pages 7-11 or at least page 11).

There is no researchable information at total non-locality (card(non-locality)=) or total locality (card(locality)=0).

Information exists only at the intermediate state, which is not memory-only (string-only) and not element-only (bead-only).

In other words, you do not understand the difference between the total and non-researchable and the non-total and researchable.
 
Thank you for using REI, have a pleasant flight.


Sorry, I did not underline anything so I can not be using your ‘REI’, which apparently requires you to underline everything. Does it not strike you as odd or at least contrived that you have to physically add a parameter of your ‘REI’ to some remarks in order to claim you find your ‘REI’ in those remarks?

Wrong.

Mutually independent is the intermediate state, which is not totally-mutual (total connectivity) and not totally-independent (totally-isolated).


Wrong.

Information is REI's result in many states of self-awareness, starting by non-aware REI and ending by aware REI.

For better understanding of this notion, please look at http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMI2.pdf (pages 7-11 or at least page 11).

There is no researchable information at total non-locality (card(non-locality)=) or total locality (card(locality)=0).

Information exists only at the intermediate state, which is not memory-only (string-only) and not element-only (bead-only).

In other words, you do not understand the difference between the total and non-researchable and the non-total and researchable.


Doron, again it is you who clearly does not understand even your own assertions as you continue to express your determinations about what you claim to be “non-researchable”. If you do not consider your own assertions to be valid or repeatedly insist that they are baseless because your fundamental assertions are about what you consider to be “non-researchable”, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

ETA:
So clearly you do not consider your interpretation of ‘cardinality’ to be or contain any ‘information’ since you ascribe it to your “non-researchable” ‘states’ where you claim, well, information does not ‘exist’. We have been telling you that about your interpretation of ‘cardinality’ for some time now.
 
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The Man said:
Sorry, I did not underline anything so I can not be using your ‘REI’,…

Yes you did, Mutual = _______ (Relation), each one of the things = . (Element).

The Man said:
ETA:
So clearly you do not consider your interpretation of ‘cardinality’ to be or contain any ‘information’ since you ascribe it to your “non-researchable” ‘states’ where you claim, well, information does not ‘exist’. We have been telling you that about your interpretation of ‘cardinality’ for some time now.

You simply unable to understand the extremes, which are the weakest defined state that has cardinal 0 and the strongest defined state that has cardinal .

The exact property of both states is their non-reseachability.

The exact property of the intermediate state between these extremes is its researchability.


Information exists only as the intermediate state, which is not totally-weak or not totally-strong.

The total is not researchable by definition, and you simply do not get that notion, because by your notion Non-researchable = Non-definable,
and also by your notion Totality is a reseachable information because it is defineable.

In other words, in your world there are no defined things that are not reseachable.

In other words, in your word there is no definition of the non-researchable, but in my word there is a definition for the non-reseachable.

Some analogy about Information:

Information is equivalent to necklace.

A necklace is at least string AND bead(s) (where String is not Bead and Bead is not String).

String alone or bead alone is not a necklace, and so is Information.

Information is at least Relation (String) AND Element(s) (Beads), otherwise it is too weak (Bead only) OR too strong (String only) to be considered as an Information (Necklace).
 
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Emptiness is definealbe but not reseashable.

Fullness is definealbe but not reseashable.
 
Yes you did, Mutual = _______ (Relation), each one of the things = . (Element).

Doron, you will claim anything “= _______”, if you are seeing lines under everything you should probably get your vision checked.


You simply unable to understand the extremes, which are the weakest defined state that has cardinal 0 and the strongest defined state that has cardinal .

The exact property of both states is their non-reseachability.

The exact property of the intermediate state between these extremes is its researchability.


Information exists only as the intermediate state, which is not totally-weak or not totally-strong.

The total is not researchable by definition, and you simply do not get that notion, because by your notion Non-researchable = Non-definable,

No Doron your assertion of ‘non-researchable’ means that your ‘definition’ is without any basis or support by your own assertions. How many times does that have to be explained to you, it is not by my notion it is specifically by your notions and assertions that your claim of ‘definition’ is without basis or merit because you are defining something you claim to be “not researchable”. Also just who do you think you’re kidding with this “is not researchable by definition” crap? You do not just claim ‘non-researchable’ ‘by definition’ you also give them what you consider ‘cardinality’ or ‘magnitude’, attribute them as ‘too strong’ or ‘too weak’ and associate them to ‘relations’ or ‘elements’ yet claim to ascribe to them no ‘information’. You have created a whole realm for yourself based on what you claim you can not research and by specifically asserting a lack of ‘information’, in that Doron, the only thing you are defining is your fantasies.


and also by your notion Totality is a reseachable information because it is defineable.

In other words, in your world there are no defined things that are not reseachable.

In other words, in your word there is no definition of the non-researchable, but in my word there is a definition for the non-reseachable.

Firstly, in the general lexicon definitions are just common usage of a word, so definitions are themselves even in a strictly linguistic sense the result of research.

In more technical and scientific applications definitions specifically describe the known characteristic attributes of what is being defined and are thus quite literally the result of research.


Finally the mere ascription of a definition (in other words a statement conveying fundamental character) or to define something (as in to make it clear and distinct) requires accurate research to have any validity and permits one to research the consequences of that definition which is why it is important to have the definition actually reflect the attributes of what is being defined. However, Doron your continued assertion of definitions to what you claim are not researchable simply makes your definitions, assertions and research (if you had actually done any) absolutely meaningless by your own notions, assertions and … wait for it…. definitions (or whatever you choose to imagine as a definition today).


Some analogy about Information:

Information is equivalent to necklace.

A necklace is at least string AND bead(s) (where String is not Bead and Bead is not String).

String alone or bead alone is not a necklace, and so is Information.

Information is at least Relation (String) AND Element(s) (Beads), otherwise it is too weak (Bead only) OR too strong (String only) to be considered as an Information (Necklace).

So again you are asserting “information” about what you claim to be “too weak” or “too strong” to be, well, “information”. Again no one can ever take your seriously Doron if you keep insisting that the ‘information’ your are asserting is not supportable by at least your own notions. Just because you claim they lack anything “to be considered as an Information” does not mean you can just stick in whatever information, like ‘”too strong” or “too weak”, that might suit you.


To put it more succinctly, Doron, your notions are fundamentally flawed almost from the very start. Sure you begin with what would basically be an interesting and useful premise “what are the consequence if we consider aspect ‘A’ and aspect ‘B’, that seem related, separately or as not being dependent on each other?”. This type and similar ‘what if’ scenarios are how we expand science into new fields. However, you then take a contradictory approach by further stipulating that aspect ‘A’ or aspect ‘B’ are not ‘researchable’ on their own. Basically insisting that you can learn nothing by considering aspect ‘A’ and aspect ‘B’ separately or as not being dependent on each other, thus the entire original premises of perhaps finding some consequences of that consideration has now been rendered moot. To then put the finial nail in this contradictory coffin you assert aspect ‘B’ as specifically ‘not aspect A’ or explicitly make them opposites or the negations of each other, thereby requiring that they must depend on each other and rendering the entire starting premises as invalid. Has it ever occurred to you, Doron, that if you can not research aspect ‘A’ without aspect ‘B’ or visa versa that they must then, in fact, be mutually dependent upon each other?
 
Emptiness is definealbe but not reseashable.

Fullness is definealbe but not reseashable.


Please, Doron, by all means define those terms (this should be entertaining). Remember since they are not researchable, as you claim, you can have no actual knowledge about what you are defining. If you what to claim your definitions to actually represent, well, what it is you’re defining then they must be researchable to at least that degree.
 
The Man,

Mutually-Independent is reseachable exactly because it is not Totally-Mutual and not Totally-Independent.

Total states are defineable (they have a cardinal of existence that prevents their researchability) but not reseachable.

Emptiness has a cardinal that has no predecessor (it is defineable).

Try to reseach Emptiness, and see what you get.

Fullness has a cardinal that has no successor (it is defineable).

Try to reseach Fullness, and see what you get.


My argument is that a Well Formed Formula is at least defineable AND reseachable.


You simply do not get the difference between the Total and the Non-Total.

Theat is why you do not get the Necklace (Mutually-Independent AND defineable AND reseachable), String (Totally-Mutual AND defineable but not reseachable), Bead (Totally-Independent AND defineable but not reseachable) analogy.

As for ________, it is the representation of the Mutual at the Mutually-Independent state, which its cardinal of exitence is > Totally-Independent state AND < Totally-Mutual state.

-------------------------------------------------

AGAIN:

Bridging is any interaction between mutually independent things.

At the moment that you get that __ atom belongs AND does not belong to . atom , where . atom belongs XOR does not belong to __ , such that __ and . are not derived from (they are not made of) each other, you have no problem to get (b).

This is the exact manifestation of being mutual independent.

Some analogy:

(b) is a necklace _._

(a) is a bead .

(c) is a string __

We do not need more than __ and . in order to define the AND and XOR states that are described above.

Cardinality is the magnitude of the existence of a thing (abstract or not).

__ and . are the atomic constants of _._ , such that card(a) < card(b) < card(c)

In that case the magnitude of . is 0 , the magnitude of __ is

The magnitude of _._ bridging is determined by the number of . that are bridged with __ , and it is > 0 and < , such that card(.) < card(_._) < card(__)
 
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Definition is nothing but a description of the defined thing and not the thing itself.

Research dealing with the thing itself, and in this case no things like Emptiness or Fullness are researchable.

No information can be found at Emptiness (too weak state) or Fullness (too strong state) levels, and if you wish to play twisted games at the level of definitions and argue that 'no-information', 'too weak' or 'too strong' are information, then you don't distinguish between the definition of X and X itself.

The researchable is stonger than the defineable card(Emptiness) and weaker than the defineable card(Fullness).
 
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The Man,

Mutually-Independent is reseachable exactly because it is not Totally-Mutual and not Totally-Independent.

Total states are defineable (they have a cardinal of existence that prevents their researchability) but not reseachable.

No Doron, again, if you had even bothered to do any research you would know that ‘mutual independent’ means a total ‘independence’ (meaning they do not influence each other) that is totally ‘mutual’ between two or more aspects. It means exactly the opposite of what you want it to mean.


Emptiness has a cardinal that has no predecessor (it is defineable).

Try to reseach Emptiness, and see what you get.

Fullness has a cardinal that has no successor (it is defineable).

Try to reseach Fullness, and see what you get.


Well again, by all means please define those terms. Just because you choose to do no research does not make things ‘non-researchable’

My argument is that a Well Formed Formula is at least defineable AND reseachable.

Well, we are still waiting for you to define the language and grammar for a Well Formed Formula in your ‘REI’ so we can research its implication. Are your planning to do that any time soon?

You simply do not get the difference between the Total and the Non-Total.

Would that be ‘the differences’ of the ‘Total’ and ‘Non-Total’ ‘states’ you claim you can not ‘research’?

Theat is why you do not get the Necklace (Mutually-Independent AND defineable AND reseachable), String (Totally-Mutual AND defineable but not reseachable), Bead (Totally-Independent AND defineable but not reseachable) analogy.

An analogy that you specifically assert has no basis or merit within your own notions, since you claim you can not ‘research’ those ‘states’ to ascertain if they are ‘bead like’, ‘string like’ are perhaps both ‘completely and independently necklace like’. You seem to be operating under the delusion that if you claim or as you put it ‘define’ your primary and ‘independent’ aspects to be ‘non-researchable’ that you can just make up any definition, analogy, association, ‘interaction’ or application that you want to apply. In actuality all you are doing is specifically claiming that everything you do, have done or will do is without any basis or support even within your own notions.


As for ________, it is the representation of the Mutual at the Mutually-Independent state, which its cardinal of exitence is > Totally-Independent state AND < Totally-Mutual state.

No Doron it is just another unsupported representation and word salad gibberish stemming from your apparently compulsive aversion to actually doing research. So intense is this apparent compulsion and aversion that you do not just claim to have done no research you claim that such research is not even possible, yet you simply expect your assertions to have merit and meaning while professing that they are baseless even within your own notions.


-------------------------------------------------

AGAIN:

Bridging is any interaction between mutually independent things.

At the moment that you get that __ atom belongs AND does not belong to . atom , where . atom belongs XOR does not belong to __ , such that __ and . are not derived from (they are not made of) each other, you have no problem to get (b).

This is the exact manifestation of being mutual independent.

Some analogy:

(b) is a necklace _._

(a) is a bead .

(c) is a string __

We do not need more than __ and . in order to define the AND and XOR states that are described above.

Cardinality is the magnitude of the existence of a thing (abstract or not).

__ and . are the atomic constants of _._ , such that card(a) < card(b) < card(c)

In that case the magnitude of . is 0 , the magnitude of __ is

The magnitude of _._ bridging is determined by the number of . that are bridged with __ , and it is > 0 and < , such that card(.) < card(_._) < card(__)


STILL:
Not doing any research are you? You can make up all the ‘definitions’, ‘magnitudes’, ‘manifestations’, ‘bridging’, ‘mutual independencies’ and whatever suits your fancy that you want. Until you can show some researchable basis it is all without any meaning whatsoever. The fact that you specifically assert the very independent foundations of your notions as ‘non-researchable’ independently imbues the resulting lack of basis or merit for your notions as the very foundation of your notions. You are quite literally pulling the rug from under your own feet.
 
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