Deeper than primes

[catbasket]

Posters, this time please do not ignore this:

if you wish to start to understand OM.

Some viewers comments on that 'documentary' -

This "documentary" is pseudointellectual piffle.

Talk about skewing the facts to make history look better.

Self-indulgent dross.

I have to say that I found this programme fundamentally flawed. The idea that anyone can be 'driven mad' by mathematics shows a complete lack of understanding of mental illness. In the cases mentioned in the programme, the hypothesis appears to be that the mathematical ideas drove the mathematicians in question mad. I'm afraid mental illness simply doesn't work like that.

Source - YouTube comments and BBC - Have Your Say

ETA - it was my birthday yesterday. I got a new cherry-picker

 

[jsfisher]

So, to my question of

So, this doesn't appear in your document

...your answer was

No

The text I cited clearly does appear in your document, yet you deny it. What does that make you?

 

[doronshadmi]

So, to my question of



...your answer was



The text I cited clearly does appear in your document, yet you deny it. What does that make you?

The "No" was only a part of what I wrote, and this "No" followed by saying that you totally ignore what follows that quote.

As usual, you take only a part of what I wrote and say that this is my argument.

This is typical straw man maneuver, and now you are both Straw Man AND Black Knight, without any contradiction.

 

[doronshadmi]

Some viewers comments on that 'documentary' -


Source - YouTube comments and BBC - Have Your Say

ETA - it was my birthday yesterday. I got a new cherry-picker

Indeed Math is not the only cause for Cantor's an Gödel's mantel illness, but it is definitely one of the triggers of their illness, exactly because they tried to get the non-finite by extensions of the finite.

You have no clue of how an endless regressive loop is devastating to unstable minds like Cantor or Gödel.

Cantor was terrified by this ever lasting loop exactly because he have found that even the non-finite itself is under an ever lasting loop of higher infinities. If he had the knowledge of the Non-local, this terrifying experience was transformed in his sensitive and unstable mind to the simple understanding that no collection of localities can be Non-locality.

As for Gödel, he was a Platonist, and as a Platonist he wished to show that the formal symbolic and mechanic mathematical system is too weak, and can't fully capture the Platonic realm. He have succeed and really showed that for any formal mathematical system that is powerful enough to deal with Arithmetic, there are always truths that are in that systems but cannot be proven within that systems (en ever lasing loop of new axiom is needed (which prevents Hilbert's mechanic completeness of all formal systems, within the boundaries of the systems) and the mathematical science can't prove its own completeness, within its own framework

At the moment that Gödel understood the consequences of his work, he struggled to find a deeper understanding of his results, which will be able to be answered by using logical reasoning in order to rigorously define intuition.

He have failed to do that exactly because he had no knowledge of the Non-local, and he was unaware of the fact that he tried to capture the Non-local by using the Local.

This failure had a tremendous impact on his sensitive and unstable mind, and on his mantel illness.

 

[zooterkin]

Indeed Math is not the only cause for Cantor's an Gödel's mantel illness, but it definitely one of the triggers of their illness, exactly because they tried to get the non-finite by extensions of the finite.

Definitely? You have some reference to back this up, or are you just going by personal experience?

 

[doronshadmi]

Definitely? You have some reference to back this up, or are you just going by personal experience?

Have you had an expriance of non-finite regression of thoughts?


Also try this: http://www.amazon.com/review/R106BA2AEFHKOX

 

[jsfisher]

The "No" was only a part of what I wrote, and this "No" followed by saying that you totally ignore what follows that quote.

As usual, you take only a part of what I wrote and say that this is my argument.

Wrong. Nowhere did I claim that was your argument. I claimed it was a statement you had made in your document. Oh, and look: You did make it. Word for word. In your document.

Try to stay focused, please. This is not a discussion about your argument. The starting point of this particular thread arc was my claim you had made a bogus statement about something being universally invariant.

You denied it. I presented, word for word, something you wrote. You denied it again, and you added a bit of goalpost migration as well. But there it remains.

The context for the statement was your convoluted presentation for Case B. Let's look at the statement in parts:

The Race continues forever...

With this, you establish the time domain for the statement.^*

...(Achilles position < Tortoise position is an invariant state).

And here you establish the spatial invariant.


Do you again wish to deny these are your words? Do you wish to recant them? Unless these aren't your words (but they are) or you recant them (which is highly unlikely), then you are responsible for a wholly bogus statement.


Oh, and please, please learn what straw man argument actually means. It will save you much embarrassment.



-------------------
^*This statement is bogus, of course, too. The Case B context doesn't save it since the whole discussion of Case B is bogus. For the case at hand, though, this doesn't matter. "The Race continues forever" establishes the IF part of the conditional: IF t >= 0 THEN Achilles position < Tortoise position.

 

[zooterkin]

Have you had an expriance of non-finite regression of thoughts?

Has anyone?

(And the word is 'infinite'.)

ETA: And I notice you didn't answer my last question.

 

[doronshadmi]

Wrong. Nowhere did I claim that was your argument. I claimed it was a statement you had made in your document. Oh, and look: You did make it. Word for word. In your document.

Try to stay focused, please. This is not a discussion about your argument. The starting point of this particular thread arc was my claim you had made a bogus statement about something being universally invariant.

You denied it. I presented, word for word, something you wrote. You denied it again, and you added a bit of goalpost migration as well. But there it remains.

The context for the statement was your convoluted presentation for Case B. Let's look at the statement in parts:



With this, you establish the time domain for the statement.^*


And here you establish the spatial invariant.


Do you again wish to deny these are your words? Do you wish to recant them? Unless these aren't your words (but they are) or you recant them (which is highly unlikely), then you are responsible for a wholly bogus statement.


Oh, and please, please learn what straw man argument actually means. It will save you much embarrassment.



-------------------
^*This statement is bogus, of course, too. The Case B context doesn't save it since the whole discussion of Case B is bogus. For the case at hand, though, this doesn't matter. "The Race continues forever" establishes the IF part of the conditional: IF t >= 0 THEN Achilles position < Tortoise position.

This is exactly what I wrote:

No, Black Knight, after this part the real party beings but since your hands and legs are off you can't follow the dance.

By "after this part" any reasonable person (expect you) immediately understands that I agree with the existence of this quote as a pert of my paper.

The "No" is about your inabiltiy to understand what is written after this quote.

 

[doronshadmi]

Has anyone?

Please answer by Yes or No.

 

[jsfisher]

This is exactly what I wrote:



By "after this part" any reasonable person (expect you) immediately understands that I agree with the existence of this quote as a pert of my paper.

The "No" is about your inabiltiy to understand what is written after this quote.

Evasion noted.

 

[The Man]

<snip>
You have no clue of how an endless regressive loop is devastating to unstable minds like Cantor or Gödel. <snip>

You forget Doron that we do have you as the cautionary example of the downfall which can ensue from Math abuse. Leading to the classic tell tail signs like 'Math Mouth', where one says just about everything they say is Math. 'Math Madness' where one imagines just about everything they might imagine is Math. Finally the augmentative fallacy known as the 'Math Man' where one sets up bogus mathematical claims, ascribes those claims to others and then asserts those claims as errors in the foundations of Math for those others. Fear not Doron, none here are likely to fall into your trap of Math abuse, roaming the web looking for that next Math fix. Sadly though for some people so afflicted they often end up out on the real number line selling their reason just to snort some polynomials or ignoring the health risks of floating point implementation by mainlining quadratic equations.

 

[doronshadmi]

You forget Doron that we do have you as the cautionary example of the downfall which can ensue from Math abuse.

You have exactly your blindness, no more no less.

Leading to the classic tell tail signs like 'Math Mouth', where one says just about everything they say is Math.

What do you know about everything if you can't get anything?

'Math Madness' where one imagines just about everything they might imagine is Math. Finally the augmentative fallacy known as the 'Math Man' where one sets up bogus mathematical claims, ascribes those claims to others and then asserts those claims as errors in the foundations of Math for those others.

There are no others, we are all on the same boat, but you are trapped at the level of your thoughts and do not get their silent source.

Fear not Doron, none here are likely to fall into your trap of Math abuse, roaming the web looking for that next Math fix.

Fear from yourself, you are trapped at the level of your thoughts and develop more technologies that soon will be turned back to your blindness, but then it will be too late. Nobody will survive in order to tell the story of your blindness.

Sadly though for some people so afflicted they often end up out on the real number line selling their reason just to snort some polynomials or ignoring the health risks of floating point implementation by mainlining quadratic equations.

You are indeed a sad case of a complex system that is functional only at finite conditions.

<snip>

 

[doronshadmi]

Evasion noted.

Black-Knight syndrome ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw&feature=related ) you have jsfisher, soon you will cut your head off by your blackness and get your ignorant rest.

 

[Darat]

To all participants:

Stop the silly and off-topic bickering or face further moderation action.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[zooterkin]

Indeed Math is not the only cause for Cantor's an Gödel's mantel illness, but it definitely one of the triggers of their illness, exactly because they tried to get the non-finite by extensions of the finite.

Definitely? You have some reference to back this up?

(Potential bickering elided.)

You have not answered this question. You claimed that maths was 'definitely' the cause of mental illness. Please provide evidence for this claim.

Have you had an expriance of non-finite regression of thoughts?

Has anyone?

(And the word is 'infinite'.)

Please answer by Yes or No.

Sorry, I sometimes assume that things are more obvious than they apparently are.

Let me spell it out. You ask, "Have you had an expriance of non-finite regression of thoughts?". By its nature, something which is infinite is not going to end. If someone was able to tell you they had experienced such a thing, then it wasn't infinite. Perhaps you could explain clearly what you meant instead.

 

[doronshadmi]

Let me spell it out. You ask, "Have you had an expriance of non-finite regression of thoughts?". By its nature, something which is infinite is not going to end. If someone was able to tell you they had experienced such a thing, then it wasn't infinite. Perhaps you could explain clearly what you meant instead.

Let me help you to be aware of your inconsistency about the non-finite.

By your "up to" you had no problem to say that the non-finite is stopped at some finite value, called Limit (or any other name that you like, it does not matter).

Jsfisher and his community are using (and teaching all around the world by academic institutions) exactly this bogus argument in order to solve the A\T Race (infinitely many values, where each one of them is not 0, are summed to some accurate value by a finite amount of time).

Poor Cantor was afraid of the non-finite, so he invented the transfinite cage in order to control the cause of his fears.

The first cage is called Aleph0, which is a fixed value that no natural number can be escape from it, because Aleph0 is bigger than any natural number that is caged by it.

Then Cantor discovered that Aleph0 cage is too small for irrational numbers, so we need a bigger cage, called Aleph1.

But then Cantor discovered that any power set of a given set needs a greater cage than the set, etc …

So Cantor discovered that the very idea of caging the non-finite, is impossible.

Instead of investigate this simple fact (the non-finite is not cage-able) in order to really understand it (which terrified him) Cantor invented the CH problem, which is a kind of a cage that is made by Aleph0 and Aleph1 as its borders.

Gödel, in principle, made the same mistake. He discovered that formal systems that are powerful enough for Arithmetic are incomplete, because there are always truths in those systems that cannot be proven within them (Conclusion: formal systems are generally incomplete, and we can say bye bye to Hilbert's mechanic program).

Instead of investigate this simple fact (the non-finite is not cage-able) in order to really understand it Gödel tried to capture it by the same tools (verbal-based symbolic Logics) that actually "told" him: "We are incomplete by nature".

Both Cantor and Gödel actually discovered the fact that no collection of lower dimension, magnitude, etc … (the name is not important) can be a higher dimension, magnitude, etc … , and one of the simplest examples is based on the fact that no collection of points can be a line, or in general: "Non-locality is not a collection of Localities".

What the "lovely" community of jsfisher made is this:

Instead of get the simple notion of the non-finite as exactly what it is: NONE-FINITE, they continued to swap off this natural fact under a new invention called Proper Classes, and then they are inventing the Power of Proper Classes (and give it some fancy name) etc... atc... and they will do any possible maneuver in order to avoid the fact that the non-finite is a non-cage-able beautiful beast.

Do not bye a cage-able non-finite beast in the market, because it is a bogus one (unless you are afraid of the real thing).

 

[zooterkin]

And your evidence that maths was definitely the cause of mental illness for Godel and Cantor?

 

[doronshadmi]

And your evidence that maths was definitely the cause of mental illness for Godel and Cantor?

Not The cause, but definitely one of the triggers.

In other words, you have totally missed http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4943317&postcount=5457 .

More about his life:

http://pirate.shu.edu/~wachsmut/ira/history/cantor.html

Let us take this part ( http://cwanswers.com/8921/georg_cantor ):

Dauben 1979, p. 280:"…the tradition made popular by Moritz Schönflies blamed Kronecker's persistent criticism and Cantor's inability to confirm his continuum hypothesis" for Cantor's recurring bouts of depression. but these episodes can now be seen as probable manifestations of a bipolar disorder.Dauben 2004, p. 1. Text includes a 1964 quote from psychiatrist Karl Pollitt, one of Cantor's examining physicians at Halle Nervenklinik, referring to Cantor's mental illness as "cyclic manic-depression".

This is simply nonsense, every psychiatrist in the world knows that the orgainc basis of mantal illness is not the one and only one cause of the actual state of the illness.

Complex systems like us are the result of not less than structure AND function, which is not totally closed to both internal AND external environmets.

Dauben continues the stupid tradition of put anything in closed isolated boxes and write nice names on each one of these cages.

He actually fails exactly as Cantor and Gödel failed, because he does not understand the Non-local, and how non-finite Local boxes are not Non-locality.

This is not Dauben's, Cantor's or Gödel's personal failures.

It is the failure of the Western school of thought to understand the Non-finite, exactly because it is trapped at the level of thoughts, and can't get Non-locality, Locality and Non-locality\Locality Linkage.

OM does it exactly because it is the science of Direct Perception, where both Eastern AND Western schools of thoughts complement each other into a one living Organism.

 

[jsfisher]

Not The cause, but definitely one of the triggers.

So your original assertion was dishonest. You made it when you had no evidence to support it.

Now that you have moved the goal posts, where is your proof of your new assertion? In particular, you'd need to refute the possibility that the mental illness was responsible for the obsession with mathematics.