Deeper than primes - Continuation

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Hi Kid Edgar,

Did you carefully read all of what is written in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9814240&postcount=3478 (including the links), as the basis of your question?

If your answer is no, then your question is probably a rhetoric question.

Short answer - yes. I've been lurking on this thread for several months.

I have read not only the referenced post, but many hundreds of your other posts, as well as responses thereto.

As yet, I have seen nothing beyond the use of a contrived symbology, and dismissal of objections raised against it.

ETA - I get it that you have an apparent obsession with numbers or set theory or something, but that doesn't mean reality has to take a rain check on your behalf. I see only numeric pareidolia.
 
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<snipped irrelevant garbage>
This post is written to any poster that demands to reduce verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning into verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

Nonsense. All I "demand" is results. I don't care how you obtain them. Use whatever skills you want. Just get some results. You can't, can you?
 
I have seen nothing beyond the use of a contrived symbology,
What do you mean exactly by "contrived symbology"?

Also, is there a reason of why you avoid any detailed reply (including some detailed questions) for the last several months?
 
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Correct!!!

(Annoying, isn't it? If someone only cherry-picks parts of a post to respond to. That is what Doron Shadmi keeps on doing so as to avoid answering questions for real.)
Nothing is annoying here. You simply determine your reasoning in order to not be aware of any result that is derived from using verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning.
 
What do you mean exactly by "contrived symbology"?

Also, is there a reason of why you avoid any detailed reply (including some detailed questions) for the last several months?

The most detailed and concise reply for you is this one: you're not even wrong.
 
Nothing is annoying here. You simply determine your reasoning in order to not be aware of any result that is derived from using verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial reasoning.

You are thusly misguided that you can not even utilize the amazing powers of verbal_symolic AND visual_spatial reasoning to show 'normal reasoning' people that there even *is* a result derived from your methodology.

This makes your methodology useless.
 
As it turns out, visual_spatial reasoning is an excellent way to show that Doron's cardinality claims are based on confusion. Ironically, these confusions come from relying too much on verbal_symbolic representations.



If you think visual_spatially, the set {1,2,3...} is one thing. Visualize it as a collection of objects stretching on forever. It is one collection of particular objects (numbers). It does not matter how many times the name of that set is written down or how many different names we give it; it remains one thing. Thus, when we have a function from {1,2,3...} into {1,2,3...}, we are still talking about that one thing. It has not split or reproduced itself into a domain and a separate codomain. So keep that visualization of the one thing in your mind.



Thinking this way we can see that a set cannot be bigger than itself. After all, there it is. It is just itself. A function from the set to itself does not alter the set, it just tells us that if we start with one member and consider it as an input, the function tells us which other member is defined as the output. The set is one thing that is not changed by the function, the function is just a way of looking at different members. However, if we lose track of the set and focus entirely on the ways we represent it symbolically, we can run into trouble. One can get confused into thinking the set is over here and also over there, then wondering which is bigger. This is a mistake. In particular, the fact that we can decide that a function defines nothing as the output when 1 is input does not show us that the one set {1,2,3...} has more members than itself. It is only if we start to focus too much on the fact that we write down the domain and codomain as two separate entries, or that we have two sides in our doron-arrow representation, that it could even be remotely tempting to see it that way. Once we think visual_spatially as well as verbal_symbolically, it is easy to spot the error.



This shows again that doron-cardinality is not a legitimate notion of the size of a set. It also shows that it is possible to communicate about visual_spatial reasoning. Doron is content merely to say "it's visual_spatial" as if that completes communication. But it is possible to guide visualization. I can tell you to imagine a triangle, or a line segment, or a single set of elements. The verbal expression does not exhaust the thought, but given our similar cognitive skills, I can convey the visualization I have in mind. So, Doron, if visual_spatial reasoning will help your case, tell us how.
 
The whole visual_spatial gibberish is just a lame cop-out. AFAICT, it's defined as follows:

one has visual_spatial skills iff one agrees with doronetics​

Needless to say, only one person's been deemed worthy of wearing the visual_spatial badge of dishonor: doron.
 
What do you mean exactly by "contrived symbology"?

Arrangements of existing symbols or standard symbologies in ways that are possible to place on a screen or paper, yet are meaningless in any context, but mistaking the situation that the ability to contrive the symbols in any given way to mean that the representation therefore makes sense.

Also, is there a reason of why you avoid any detailed reply (including some detailed questions) for the last several months?

What's to avoid? I'm under no obligation to participate, except to the extent and timing of my choice.

You've had several months to present your case and it's come up empty, so I chose to make that observation.
 
Thinking this way we can see that a set cannot be bigger than itself.

EDIT:

{1,2,3...} is indeed one and only one thing and still it can also be bigger than itself if visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning is used on a collection with unbounded amount of objects.

BenjaminTR all what you are doing is to force verbal_symbolic-only reasoning (that is based on collections with bounded amount of objects) on collections with unbounded amount of objects, by simply missing the abstract aspect of visual_spatial reasoning.

As long as you do not get actual infinity (which is beyond collections as shown, for example, in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9794314&postcount=3420) you simply have no way to deal with collections with unbounded amount of objects, which are no more than potential infinity, where one of the properties of potential infinity is the ability to be bigger than itself and even smaller than its own proper subset, or in other words, potential infinity does not have necessarily clear self identity, and this is exactly the meaning of an expression like

Code:
{1,2,3,4,5,...}
 ↓ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ 
  {1,2,3,4,...}

Again, one and only one unbounded collection is involved in the expression above (no two separate entries are involved here, and it can be known only if one really uses his\her abstract visual_spatial reasoning (in addition to its abstract verbal_symbolic reasoning) and you BenjaminTR still failing to use your abstract visual_spatial reasoning. As a result, you get the expression above in terms of two separate entries), which simply expresses its unclear identity in terms of visual_spatial tool.



Your current state about the discussed subject is analogous to using measurements of macro scale on QM micro scale.
 
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[...] where one of the properties of potential infinity is the ability to be bigger than itself and even smaller than its own proper subset, or in other words, potential infinity does not have necessarily clear self identity, and this is exactly the meaning of an expression like

Code:
{1,2,3,4,5,...}


 ↓     


  {1,2,3,4,...}

Again, one and only one unbounded collection is involved in the expression above, [...] which demonstrates its unclear identity.
Holy crap, this is great stuff. Take this argument.:

1. Every set is identical to itself.

2. If two things are identical, neither is bigger than the other.

3. Therefore no set is bigger than itself.

Where a lesser person would concede the argument, Doron objects to premise 1! Questioning self-identity, that is bold.
 
What is *your* definition of "visual_spatial reasoning", as this term does not appear to correlate with the general definition, in the context in which you are using it.
 
Holy crap, this is great stuff. Take this argument.:

1. Every set is identical to itself.

2. If two things are identical, neither is bigger than the other.

3. Therefore no set is bigger than itself.

Where a lesser person would concede the argument, Doron objects to premise 1! Questioning self-identity, that is bold.

As I said a lot of posts earlier: Doron is an anglerfish; he waits for someone that thinks TL;DR and asks something he feels comfortable rehashing his same old and lame arguments with...

And then we get the 'There's a hole in yer bucket, dear Doron, dear Doron...'
 
dear Doron, dear Doron...'
EDIT:

Dear realpaladin, dear realpaladin.

Let's do it even better.

1. Every set is identical to itself.

For example "N is N".

The fact that "N is N" does not mean that necessarily |N| = |N|, exactly because the cardinality of collections with unbounded amount of objects can be also (by using visual_spatial expression)

Code:
|{1,2,3,4,5,...}|
  ↓ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ 
  |{1,2,3,4,...}|

that is translated to |N| > |N| verbal_symbolic expression (more details are given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9794292&postcount=3418).

Again, we are dealing here with one and only one collection with unbounded amount of objects.
 
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What a sad limitation doronetics has. It can't tell that the next natural number after 4 is 5.
Wrong conclusion (you simply ignore what's going on the left side of the visual_spatial expression. The right side is simply unbounded).

But this is not the case at all.

The case is that any collection with unbounded amount of objects is no more than potential infinity, and anything that is potential infinity does not have well-defined size, which is an essential property of the identity of collections with unbounded amount of objects (their size is = OR ¬= w.r.t themselves).

In order to realize that this is indeed an essential property of the identity of collections with unbounded amount of objects, one has to understand actual infinity, which is non-local and beyond collections, which are no more than forms of potential infinity.

More details of this fine subject are given, for example, in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9800545&postcount=3440.
 
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