Cont: Deeper than primes - Continuation 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
|A| <= |B| is a proposition that may or may not be true.
In case of one-to-one from A to B, |A| can't be > |B|, so what is left is <=.

|A| <= |B| is a proposition that can't be false since (|A| < |B|) OR not(|A| < |B|) (where in case of one-to-one from A to B, not(|A| < |B|) is actually (|A| = |B|).

So in case of injection, |A| <= |B| can't be but true, or in other words, tautology.


Nowhere in the axioms of ZFC, for example, is the meaning of finite cardinality nor infinite cardinality provided. That is something that needs to be added.
Well, you have said that the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity has two properties

Property 1: ∅ ∈ I

Proerty 2: ∀ x ∈ I ( ( x ∪ { x } ) ∈ I )

According to you, these properties can't establish the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity to actually be the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity unless more ZF(C) axiom are involved.

Now even if the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity is established as the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity (as have been said above), by your quote, more things have to be added to ZF(C) in order to provide the meaning (semantics) of finite cardinality or infinite cardinality.

Are you talking about some model that has to be added to ZF(C)?

You haven't provided your definition, yet. You suggested what 'strict cardinality' might mean, but that was not a definition of cardinality.
Once again you read my posts too quickly.

Please this time read http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13129316&postcount=3507 more slowly in order to realize what is suggested by my definition of Cardinality, which does not need your additional maneuvers in order to define finite or infinite cardinality.

I know that I call additional maneuvers, is taken by you as a privilege, since these additional maneuvers are the signature of expressions, which are general enough in order to be used in different contexts.

-----------------------------

I going to sleep now, so I will air my view about it later.
 
Last edited:
In case of one-to-one from A to B, |A| can't be > |B|, so what is left is <=.

If there is an injection from A to B, then |A| <= |B|. That follows directly from how I defined the <= relationship. Why is this a surprise to you?

If, on the other hand, there is no such injection, then ~(|A| <= |B|). This should also not be surprising.

By the way, I didn't define the ">" relationship, so you shouldn't use it.

|A| <= |B| is a proposition that can't be false since....

If A is the set {1,x,banana} and B is {unicorn}, then ~(|A| <= |B|) since there is no injection from A to B.

All of your gibberish that came after the "since", above, was just that, gibberish.

|A| <= |B| if and only if / is defined by / means there exists an injection from A to B​


Well, you have said that the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity has two properties....According to you, these properties can't establish the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity to actually be the ZF(C) Axiom of infinity unless more ZF(C) axiom are involved.

Nope, I never said that. (And don't equate the name give to an axiom with what the axiom actually says. The Axiom of Infinity postulates the existence of a set with two properties. It does not call it an infinite set. Even if it had, that would not define what infinite set meant, just postulate the existence of one example.)

Are you talking about some model that has to be added to ZF(C)?

Nope. You just need something that defines what "infinite set" means. "A set Q is infinite if and only if...."
 
Once again you read my posts too quickly.

No, my comment was exactly correct: You haven't provided your definition, yet. You suggested what 'strict cardinality' might mean, but that was not a definition of cardinality.
 
No, my comment was exactly correct: You haven't provided your definition, yet. You suggested what 'strict cardinality' might mean, but that was not a definition of cardinality.

Here is an expanded response:

If you think about it, you need the property of "size" of sets before you can define "size" of sets.

Huh?

(|A| is called strict iff for bijection f : A → { 0 , … , n } |A| is some n) OR (|A| is called non-strict iff for bijection f : A → { 0 , … , n } |A| is not any some n)

Ok, let's see if we can parse that. You seem to be defining something:
|A| is called strict...
Yes, you are defining what it means for the cardinality of a set (which has not yet been defined) to be strict.

...iff for bijection f...
and that meaning is precisely equivalent to...um, er, something. "iff for bijection f"? Did you mean "iff there exists a bijection, f"? Let's assume so.

|A| is called strict iff there exists a bijection f : A → { 0 , … , n }
Well, that's more sensible. There is a problem with that set, {0, ..., n}, though. Shall we assume you mean a set composed of a sequence of whole numbers from 0 to n? That would require your set theory have considerably more added to it besides a simple concept of mapping. You need for the whole numbers to be defined and for them to be well-ordered, and maybe more things I'm missing. I will not ask you to define those things, however, since I know they can be defined, just not by you.

You still have a problem, though. You have n as a free variable. Shall we add a "there exists an n in N" (where N is the set of whole numbers)? Ok? If so, we'd be up to this:

|A| is called strict iff there exists n in N (there exists a bijection, f : A → { 0 , … , n })

If we are still good to this point, then you have an acceptable definition for whether the cardinality of some set is strict or not. Hurrah! Not sure why you need the term, strict, but Hurrah! nonetheless. (It is also not really what you meant; boundary examples can be a bear.)

Continuing:
...|A| is some n...
Huh? What did you mean by this? It is not connected to all the stuff that precedes it. It has no meaning in predicate calculus sitting there where it does. It can be safely removed, and with that bit of nonsense removed, you are back to an acceptable definition for whether the cardinality of some set is strict or not.

Continuing with your statement, as corrected, we have:
(|A| is called strict iff there exists an n in N (there exists a bijection f : A → { 0 , … , n })) OR ...
And now we run smack into that OR. Odd thing, that. One does not usually find two definitions joined in a disjunction very often. Seems pointless, too, since definitions are universally true. The are definitions, after all.

No matter. Everything that follows the OR would require more correction than what was required for the left side, but it ends up being redundant and not worth any effort to correct. You've already defined what strict means and what not strict means. You don't need to define them again in the negation.

Still no sign of a definition for cardinality. Maybe there is something coming up in your post. Let's look:

Cardinality is a measure of the number of members of set A
Perfectly acceptable background information. Not a definition of cardinality, though.

...such that (A is finite iff |A| is strict) OR (A is non-finite iff |A| is non-strict).
Looks like you want to define something again. As before, let's fix it to be what you probably meant:
A is finite iff |A| is strict
Not very interesting. Why did you even bother with introducting the term, strict, in the first place? You could have just defined 'finite' directly without the smoke and mirrors.


And still no sign of a definition of cardinality.


Thread continues here.
Posted By: zooterkin
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom