Cont: Deeper than primes - Continuation 2

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Still, I am enjoying dialogue the between you and Apathia. It has provided new insight into why Philosophy has little relevance beyond questions of human values and ethics.

That's like reading a crank physics journal and concluding that physics has little relevance. Not to say that the people involved are crank philosophers exactly, but your reasoning here doesn't hold - it's more like you're starting off with the desire for that conclusion and then look for support for it in the dialogue in this thread.
 
Mathematics is said to be "the language of nature." It has been a more precise and practical tool for describing the habitual behaviors of the natural world.

Doron is telling us it has gaps in its potential usage. It doesn't provide us a way to express moral behavior. It's limited to speaking of everything as object without including subjective consciousness. It doesn't express our sense of transcendence. His "Organic Mathematics goal is the creation of such a language that by it's very use expands our consciousness and prevents us from technological creations that make objects of us and threaten our existence.

I don't think means to have a mathematics of morality in the sense of algorithms of moral calculation so you can just add up to doing the right thing. I think he means a mathematics/language of Integrity where Right Speech is inevitable. He intends a language that by its very use lifts you above a consciousness of just broken pieces of us vs them.

If we just spoke/used the "language of Heaven" or the "True Words," we would naturally behave "heavenly."

The basic technique seems to be not speaking in terms of abstract classes but 1) working from the visually concrete 2) Seeing that the visually concrete is of a seamless UNITY not broken up by class concepts but manifesting and expressing itself through terms of the complementarity and relation of polar opposite concepts 3) Seeing, speaking, and listening beyond the narrow range of class concept associations, realizing the wider range of relations created in the X/Y complementarities. 4) Always focusing on/in the UNITY upon which all diversity rests.

In such a language the chief organizing principle would be a kind of Yin and Yang, somewhat similar to the language of Traditional Chinese Medicine. where qi comes in gradations and balances of Hot and Cold, Tight and Flaccid, Strong and Weak. (I complete a course in Shiatsu some years ago. Within that there was a presentation about how Chinese medicine was "Wholistic" as opposed to being "analytical." In the end I found it lacking. Even Doron would say we need both wholistic AND analytical, or as he says elsewhere, "East AND West."

One can get the intentions of the program and use the vocabulary of terms such as Redundancy and Uncertainty, YESthing and NOthing, critique class concepts of Infinity, and acknowledge that in most cases of natural relations A can be notA, but this doesn't alter the consciousness. The key thing here is that Doron intends a consciousness altering language, that if learned from childhood will prevent the poisons of a mere class, analytical, and object rationality.

I'm not seeing that in his work yet. So I suggested that the primary approach would be to alter consciousness first through the other available means, especially in meditation techniques. Then one does learn to see from the perspective of UNITY awareness and Relation as the reality rather than objects.

It seems to me that Doron already brings his X/Y relational and visual cognition experience intuitively to his presentation. It is a manifestation of his way of cognition. We have been thoroughly acclimatized to our grand tradition of "Greek" Rationality. So we don't just get it intuitively. It all seems so plain and ordinary to Doron, and why we don't naturally get it is amazing and appalling. It already serves his consciousness. To use it to alter ours or craft a mathematics that would in its daily practical use direct our minds thought by Relations and UNITY Awareness is problematic.

The words get in the way. It's been suggested that for any language we must refocus to the Silence between the words.

A start would be not seeing so-called opposites as being adversarial but acknowledging, for example, that Individual and Community aren't separate political foundations of polity on their own, but cooperate and become each other in UNITY. That's Doron's basic MO. The Coincidentia Opositorum.
 
That's like reading a crank physics journal and concluding that physics has little relevance.

I'm not following this. I am not accusing either Apathia or Doronshadmi of crank Philosophy. I am, however, concluding that their philosophic views of what I'll call the dominant models of Mathematics are completely irrelevant to Mathematics.
 
I'm not following this. I am not accusing either Apathia or Doronshadmi of crank Philosophy. I am, however, concluding that their philosophic views of what I'll call the dominant models of Mathematics are completely irrelevant to Mathematics.

In layman dum dum (me) terms, 2+3 will always equal 5 despite the two possibly having depression and a mid-life crisis.
 
jsfisher, can you please tell us what X needs in order to claim that X doesn't care (or cares)?

"Mathematics doesn't care" is a rhetorical device. Do you understand what a rhetorical device is?

Be that as it may, if you want to overturn Mathematics' dominant treatment of, let's say, infinity, then you need to point out an actual inconsistency, or you could formalize an alternate treatment that is sufficiently superior to justify the overturn. So far, you have done neither; instead, you have merely asserted incorrectness. Your personal views on the subject are not sufficient, and especially so when riddled with their own inconsistencies, circular reasoning, and lack of definition.

Bertrand Russell overturned the dominant treatment of sets some 100 years ago. He pointed out an inconsistency. Alternate set theories were developed, several of them, and it seems ZF(C) now has an edge for dominance. ZF(C) gives rise to an infinity you dislike, so ZF(C) is where you should focus your attempts for a mathematical coup.
 
In layman dum dum (me) terms, 2+3 will always equal 5 despite the two possibly having depression and a mid-life crisis.

Before I took up the Way of Zen, 2 + 3 equaled 5.
As I proceeded on the Way. 2 + 3 no longer equaled 5.
But when I realized Zen, 2 + 3 once more equaled 5. :wackylaugh:
(Based on a Zen saying in which the subject is mountains.)

Whatever new paradigm of Mathematics may arise (If one even does.), this kind of practical ac-counting will still exist, and 2 + 3 will continue to be 5 on my calculator.

Doron's notion is that there is more to it than just that one kind of answer. But as far as counting your bars of gold-pressed latinum goes, Rule of Acquisition 362 applies. "Don't mess with the arithmetic."
 
"Mathematics doesn't care" is a rhetorical device. Do you understand what a rhetorical device is?

Be that as it may, if you want to overturn Mathematics' dominant treatment of, let's say, infinity, then you need to point out an actual inconsistency, or you could formalize an alternate treatment that is sufficiently superior to justify the overturn. So far, you have done neither; instead, you have merely asserted incorrectness. Your personal views on the subject are not sufficient, and especially so when riddled with their own inconsistencies, circular reasoning, and lack of definition.

Bertrand Russell overturned the dominant treatment of sets some 100 years ago. He pointed out an inconsistency. Alternate set theories were developed, several of them, and it seems ZF(C) now has an edge for dominance. ZF(C) gives rise to an infinity you dislike, so ZF(C) is where you should focus your attempts for a mathematical coup.

Since for now I'm more in the mode of exploring Doron's ideas I'm still toying with the possibility that there could be a new paradigm of Mathematics based on relations instead of abstract classes and categories.

I agree that so far Doron has not presented a foundation for algorithms that could replace even those used in Algebra. So far it's bringing a spoon to a tank battle. I'm not sure he thinks that having a new number theory and set theory upon which algorithms can be built is relevant. He's taking a spoon to a bowl of ice-cream. It's doing all he needs.
 
"Mathematics doesn't care" is a rhetorical device. Do you understand what a rhetorical device is?
Rhetorical device can be used in more than one way, so please tell us precisely what is your way to use it in case of "Mathematics doesn't care".

Without this precision, all you get is hands waiving response.

Be that as it may, if you want to overturn Mathematics' dominant treatment of, let's say, infinity, then you need to point out an actual inconsistency, or you could formalize an alternate treatment that is sufficiently superior to justify the overturn.

What you call formalism is exactly verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

Since verbal_symbolic-only reasoning is your corner stone, anything that is based on visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, can't be considered by you as a valid way to formalize an alternate treatment that is sufficiently superior to verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

Apathia said:
The key thing here is that Doron intends a consciousness altering language, that if learned from childhood will prevent the poisons of a mere class, analytical, and object rationality.

I'm not seeing that in his work yet.
Childhood is the time period, where adults have the most significant influence on the generations to come.

Exactly because of this reason an educational method (governed by adults like jsfisher) that is tuned to literally shut down visual_spatial reasoning during mathematical formalism, may cause an irreversible demerge among the generations to come.

Moreover, jsfisher is unfortunately a concrete case of the damage that is a direct result of shuting down visual_spatial reasoning during mathematical formalism.

As a result posts like http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 are simply crossing over his verbal_symbolic-only head.

Unfortunately, jsfisher is a one person out of vast community of persons, that continue the educade the generations to come to shut down their visual_spatial reasoning during mathematical formalism.

Still, I am enjoying dialogue the between you and Apathia. It has provided new insight into why Philosophy has little relevance beyond questions of human values and ethics.

Here is a concrete example of why a community of persons (where jsfisher is a reliable representor of this community) that disconnects Mathematics from human values and ethics, are so devastating and dangerous for our own survival as living forms, at least on planet Earth.

Mathematics that its corner stone is verbal_symbolic-only reasoning, can't by used as a tool that bridges heart (visual_spatial) AND mind (verbal_symbolic) reasoning.
 
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jsfisher said:
Doronshadmi's distaste for absolute infinity doesn't in any way forbid Mathematics from having an absolute infinity, or several of them,

I am not insulting you, exactly because you are a proud member the community of persons that are doing mathematics by using only their verbal_symbolic reasoning skills.

Once again it is demonstrated that by using your verbal_symbolic-only reasoning skills, you have no clew what is actually given in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 and forward.

Your replies reinforce my arguments about the community of classical mathematicians.

Please don't stop. You are doing a great job by exposing what happens to a person that shuts down his visual_spatial reasoning skills during his mathematical work, for so many years.

As a result he has no ability to deal, for example, with www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12404383&postcount=3030.

Fore the rest of the posters, are you going to give your children to a community of persons, which systematically trains their brains to shut down their visual_spatial reasoning skills during their mathematical activity.

Please be aware that by doing that, a tool like Mathematics can't be used anymore as a consistent bridge between heart AND mind, exactly as obverted by jsfisher.


On the contrary, what I suggest is to develop Mathematics as a tool that actually enables to consistently bridge between heart AND mind, in spite of jsfisher's community of mathematicians.
 
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What you call formalism is exactly verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

Since verbal_symbolic-only reasoning is your corner stone, anything that is based on visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, can't be considered by you as a valid way to formalize an alternate treatment that is sufficiently superior to verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

This draws the line. A formalized Mathematics that derives the algorithms of higher math is a verbal-symbolic construction and activity. It's a language of logical manipulations not shapes or charts. So it's clear that that's nothing to be expected from Doron's "organic" approach.

Again, it seems to me that Doron is about a meta-mathematic that shows how numbers and the basic operations of common math emerge from a relational paradigm of "visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic interaction.

Childhood is the time period, where adults have the most significant influence on the generations to come.

Exactly because of this reason an educational method (governed by adults like jsfisher) that is tuned to literally shut down visual_spatial reasoning during mathematical formalism, may cause an irreversible demerge among the generations to come.

Alas! Memorizing multiplication tables and following methods of arriving at solutions that are taught in a step by step fashion, does not involve visual_spatial thinking and skills. It doesn't even if it's for word problems.

This thing we do and call Mathematics is chronically verbal_symbolic.
Algorithms are verbal_symbolic. They don't by their very nature and purpose
use visual_spatial thinking and skills. Whenever we do a math problem, especially when we use a calculator, we are very, very far from any visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic interaction.

So of course, Doron's goal is not about generating new algorithms for higher math. Making and doing such algorithms is going to irreparably "damage" your psyche and create awful technologies that will lead to Human extinction. And using the current ones has already pushed us to the brink of extinction.
 
I am, however, concluding that their philosophic views of what I'll call the dominant models of Mathematics are completely irrelevant to Mathematics.

Then the following highlighted word was missing from your original statement:

It has provided new insight into why their Philosophy has little relevance beyond questions of human values and ethics.
 
Fore the rest of the posters, are you going to give your children to a community of persons, which systematically trains their brains to shut down their visual_spatial reasoning skills during their mathematical activity.

Please be aware that by doing that, a tool like Mathematics can't be used anymore as a consistent bridge between heart AND mind, exactly as obverted by jsfisher.


On the contrary, what I suggest is to develop Mathematics as a tool that actually enables to consistently bridge between heart AND mind, in spite of jsfisher's community of mathematicians.

I take it the goal is to make the tool of Mathematics one in which heart and mind are engaged in the very process of arriving at even the simplest numerical solutions. The answer to how many eggs are in 3 cartons of 1 dozen eggs each must be arrived at using a visual_spatial approach rather than rules of multiplication and division. What's more this way of arriving at solutions must involve UNITY awareness and engage the heart and morality in the process.

However, you have said, "We do not discard anything which is related to the finite mathematical framework." So I think your target continues to be overthrowing and replacing the current mathematics of Infinities. These Math people are asking "How are we going to do Calculus problems?" You aren't going to give them the algorithms they crave, because that's too exclusively verbal_symbolic. So what to do, other than don't be doing this calculus stuff, because it's destructive?

I get it that you want a whole new Mathematics, because the current one is by its nature verbal_symbolic only.
 
"We do not discard anything which is related to the finite mathematical framework."
We add to the finite mathematical framework the notion that it is finitely weaker than Actual Infinity (AI), where AI is the common source of both finite and potentially infinite mathematical frameworks (exactly as rigorously defined in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 and forward, by using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning).

I get it that you want a whole new Mathematics, because the current one is by its nature verbal_symbolic only.

I suggest a whole new Mathematics because the current one can't actually reach http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163 goal.

As I get it (please observe www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12436035&postcount=3175) without actually reaching such goal, we are not going to survive our further manipulations of nature's forces.

Since world war 2, we have crossed the "nice to have" zone into the "must have" zone, and without a doubt we have lost our privilege to use a powerful tool like Mathematics in a way that is not based on at least heart AND mind reasoning.

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I am saying it load and clear for at least past 10 years in this forum, the power of our civilization, whether it is expressed in terms of Politics, Economy, Technology, Science, Religion, Art, and many more disciplines, is without a doubt derived from Mathematics.

So the paradigm shift must be done in Mathematics.
 
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We add to the finite mathematical framework the notion that it is finitely weaker than Actual Infinity (AI), where AI is the common source of both finite and potentially infinite mathematical frameworks (exactly as rigorously defined in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 and forward, by using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning).



I suggest a whole new Mathematics because the current one can't actually reach http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163 goal.

As I get it (please observe www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12436035&postcount=3175) without actually reaching such goal, we are not going to survive our further manipulations of nature's forces.

Since world war 2, we have crossed the "nice to have" zone into the "must have" zone, and without a doubt we have lost our privilege to use a powerful tool like Mathematics in a way that is not based on at least heart AND mind reasoning.

---------------------

I am saying it load and clear for at least past 10 years in this forum, the power of our civilization, whether it is expressed in terms of Politics, Economy, Technology, Science, Religion, Art, and many more disciplines, is without a doubt derived from Mathematics.

So the paradigm shift must be done in Mathematics.


No there doesn't.
 
Since for now I'm more in the mode of exploring Doron's ideas I'm still toying with the possibility that there could be a new paradigm of Mathematics based on relations instead of abstract classes and categories.

There are hints in some of Doronshadmi's posts of alternative formulations, but none of it appears to be anything new.

I agree that so far Doron has not presented a foundation for algorithms that could replace even those used in Algebra. So far it's bringing a spoon to a tank battle. I'm not sure he thinks that having a new number theory and set theory upon which algorithms can be built is relevant. He's taking a spoon to a bowl of ice-cream. It's doing all he needs.

Simple set theory would be a better starting place. At one point it seemed like just maybe he'd try that. ZF without the Axiom of Infinity seemed to be where he wanted to go, but he aborted that exercise by disputing definitions of first-order predicate logic.

Any constraint of formalism gets rejected.
 
We add to the finite mathematical framework the notion that it is finitely weaker than Actual Infinity (AI), where AI is the common source of both finite and potentially infinite mathematical frameworks (exactly as rigorously defined in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12412827&postcount=3095 and forward, by using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning).

A addition that by the way subtracts the Transfinite mathematics of Cantor and the Mathematics of Infinitesimals used in Calculus. Also it subtracts a formalism based on predicate logic. And it doesn't stop there. It subtracts an algorithmic approach to calculations and solutions.

But the important value added you declare is that asserting this is somehow supposed to engage UNITY awareness and compassion. Of course it asserts something about Infinity and equates Infinity with UNITY, so that if I'm using Infinity correctly, I'll be in UNITY awareness. Gee, if that was all it took..

I believe that for you it's a liberating assertion with deep connotations. Freeing Infinity from its mathematical shackles opens up a world of possibility that stuffy old mathematics keeps trying to stifle by its symbolic logic where A is never permitted to be non-A. Freeing Infinity via the tool of X/Y complementarity means that reality can never again be subject to classifying concepts in Mathematics, and then in Science, that make nature and persons object instances of cognitive classes rather than what they concretely are of themselves. We got in this mess by what A.E. Whitehead called "the Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness," that we made abstract class concepts and objects of such the reality, rather than what strikes our noses. Your position is that if we simply made the X/Y Complementarity with its Visual_Spatial component our way of organized thinking, we'd naturally shatter the foundations of materialistic, reductionist science that denies our consciousness and no longer treat each other and nature as objects. It seems to me that this, your, liberation from Mathematics' class conceptualizing's of Infinity and finite collections does mean for you, does entail for you, applying and expressing Unity awareness in your daily life. It is a philosophical platform for you and a thought ritual that when standing upon you are open to the Infinite and remember UNITY.

I feel it's similar to my experience when I contemplate the Buddhist teaching of Emptiness and No-self. I remember that of myself no one is in here and that because of that everyone is in here. This is a liberating notion that reminds me to stop and acknowledge the Unborn, Silent, SOURCE: UNITY. This my liberation. But for the others here, a bit of philosophy, a bit of meta-mathematics (Even a reading of Gödel, Escher, Bach) isn't going to necessarily expand their consciousness. They aren't bringing the meaning, the connotations, the engagement of consciousness you are.

(I confess that being philosophical is only a reminder for me. Sitting and letting go of my interfering thoughts is my best tool.)

I am saying it load and clear for at least past 10 years in this forum, the power of our civilization, whether it is expressed in terms of Politics, Economy, Technology, Science, Religion, Art, and many more disciplines, is without a doubt derived from Mathematics.

So the paradigm shift must be done in Mathematics.

At first my reaction to this statement was "Oh no! If this is the no other way under Heaven we can know UNITY awareness ,have compassion in the world, and salvation than this new paradigm of Mathematics only suggested in this thread,
I'm left behind!

But I saw that what you mean by Mathematics is that it is the language of thought. This is how the Geek founders of Mathematics saw it, and how Russell and other Formalists wanted it to be. As the language of thought, it is foundational to all other Human endeavors. Obviously from this perspective, if we think correctly, all our mental endeavors will be transformed.

So what you have presented to us is a basic illustration of what you see as correct thinking: a new organizational principle of cognition. The X/Y complementarity way of thinking promotes Unity thinking: the Unity of Opposites and a transcendence of the separateness and division of class cognition.

That's not necessarily going to generate the sort of Mathematics we've been accustomed to these many centuries. It isn't necessarily going to be about algorithms and formulas. Perhaps it will find visual tools inspired by a draftsman's sort of manipulations. But whatever, you have presented the essence of your new Mathematical paradigm, your rules of thought.

They are curious and continue to engage my curiosity. I want to play with them to see where it might take me. I have lived in other cultures than the one of my birth and seen that in some the very terms of what it means to be a person are different. This didn't appall me, but fascinated me. So excuse me for sticking around to explore your culture of thinking.

The others can be appalled, or indifferent. I just hope that when they critique your way of thinking, they understand how you are thinking and make relevant critiques. Then your ten years won't be a hopeless waste.
 
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No there doesn't.

My interpretation is that he means Mathematics as the language of thought, and that the paradigm shift must begin there with new rules of thought.

He has presented illustrations of his new Rules though not a primer on how to think right yet.
 
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There are hints in some of Doronshadmi's posts of alternative formulations, but none of it appears to be anything new.

Simple set theory would be a better starting place. At one point it seemed like just maybe he'd try that. ZF without the Axiom of Infinity seemed to be where he wanted to go, but he aborted that exercise by disputing definitions of first-order predicate logic.

Any constraint of formalism gets rejected.

I see now that Set Theory with logical formulations is naturally rejected by Doron's forms of thought. Calculating solutions via algorithms is also not in his picture, except perhaps as some kind of secondary derivative. His Mathematics is an attempted new rules of thought having different value addeds than what is expected of current Mathematics. He's not doing what a mathematician would call Mathematics, except if various proposed rules of thought were a division of the discipline, and his presentation could be called a meta-mathematical activity. I'm not a mathematician, but I'll continue to see it a meta-mathematical endeavor for the time being.
 
jsfisher said:
Any constraint of formalism gets rejected.
Mathematical formalism which rigorously defines forms by using visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning, definitely expends forms beyond verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

So I agree with, jsfisher, that "Any constraint of formalism gets rejected.", exactly becaue verbal_symbolic-only reasoning is literally constraint of formalism.


I'm not a mathematician, but I'll continue to see it a meta-mathematical endeavor for the time being.
Classical mathematics' formalism is based on verbal_symbolic only reasoning. My suggested framework is exactly Mathematics, and any attempt to decorate it by alternative titles like meta-mathematics, is a way to avoid the paradigm shift in Mathematics.

As for you, Apahtia, you are a real mathematician exactly because your reasoning is not constrained by verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.

Please do not apologize in front of any person or community of persons that do mathematics only in terms of verbal_symbolic-only reasoning.
 
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