• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Declining IQ of college grads

Aptitude for efficient problem solving, thorough command of the language and understanding of its nuances... yeah, gonna go out on a limb and call things like that useful, at least compared to the alternatives.
Intelligence is certainly useful, but is a high IQ sufficiently more useful than a normal one? If it causes you to be pushed into a rat race of academic achievement then perhaps not. That's why I dropped out. I wanted a job that I could be competent at and enjoy doing without being pushed to (or beyond) the limit.

There's a lot more to life than just being able to solve puzzles faster than the next guy.
 
Successful people who dropped out out school.

-snip-

And that's just a few of the most famous ones.

Anecdotal evidence, in other words. I'm sure I can also list e.g dozens of people who completed university successfully, but nevertheless died broke and homeless. That doesn't mean there's a causal relationship.
 
Successful people who dropped out out school.

Going to university doesn't make you smart. It used to be that it was difficult to get into unviversity, so a university degree signalled a certain level of intelligence and competence. As the numbers of universities exploded, and standards dropped, that signalling is gone. If anything, unless a person majors in the hard sciences, university probably makes people dumber.
 
Aptitude for efficient problem solving, thorough command of the language and understanding of its nuances... yeah, gonna go out on a limb and call things like that useful, at least compared to the alternatives.

Being an idiot is tough. But having an exceptionally high IQ is no guarantee of success. I’d say having an average IQ for the field and good attitude is more valuable to an employer than being brilliant but not willing to get anything done.

In other words, you have to be smart enough to do the work, but not so smart that you don’t want to do the work.
 
Going to university doesn't make you smart. It used to be that it was difficult to get into unviversity, so a university degree signalled a certain level of intelligence and competence. As the numbers of universities exploded, and standards dropped, that signalling is gone. If anything, unless a person majors in the hard sciences, university probably makes people dumber.

History major?
 
In England educational achievement was often closely linked to class. The so-called public schools started off as a charity providing education for the upper middle classes' boys who were expected to work for a living (the aristocracy didn't need to work as we know it). The upper classes on seeing the benefits of such an education quickly sent their sons to the same public schools, with Eton originally being a 'feeder' to Oxford University Kings College, founded by Henry IV (iirc). So the fetish of employers for the Eton-Oxford brigade, not to mention the armed forces and politics is a thing associated with high status rather than high IQ.

People don't like the new egalitarian standard of roughly 50% of the population now obtaining a bachelors degrees because it is no longer a class marker (although in England the class system is still there).
 
So, it is doubly bad. Population-wide IQs have risen while the IQs of college grads have fallen.

No. This doesn't indicate anybody has got dumber, and IQs are being compared with their contemporaries so a general rise over decades is irrelevant here.

Tertiary education used to be for an elite, heavily skewed to the academically able rather than just rich kids, so that group could be expected to have a much higher than average IQ. Now it's for half the population so the average graduate IQ is closer to the population average without anybody having to get any dumber to cause it.
 
Successful people who dropped out out school.

Sheldon Adelson
Richard Branson
Amancio Ortega
Steve Jobs
Mark Zuckerberg
Alicia Keys
Dick Cheney
Tiger Woods
Bill Gates
Brad Pitt
Jack Dorsey
Ellen DeGeneres
Steven Spielberg
Vin Diesel
Kayne West
Madonna
Harry Truman
Henry Ford
Paul Allen
Paula Abdul
Frank Lloyd Wright
Steve Madden
Lady Gaga
James Dean
John D. Rockefeller
Paul Newman
Michael Dell
Eddie Murphy
Ted Turner
Oprah Winfrey
Steve Wozniak
Walt Disney
Bob Dylan
Scientists
Thomas Edison
Albert Einstein
Mark Twain
Jack Kerouac
Jack London
William Faulkner
Harper Lee
F. Scott Fitzgerald
George Bernard Shaw

And that's just a few of the most famous ones.

Are you making the claim that those people succeeded despite having low IQs?
 
Why would you think they meant that?

I doubt very much he meant that; instead he wanted to refute the point about IQ being highly correlated with academic and social success, and came up with a list of people who are quite obviously (mostly) high IQ and highly successful. You could argue that since they didn't graduate college, they weren't particularly academically successful.

It is an article of faith among some around here that all a high IQ tells us is whether you are good at taking IQ tests.
 
It is rather trivial to make tests reliable -- ie, to give the same result each application. IQ tests are highly reliable. But about measuring what? They measure g, general intelligence, taken to mean the average performance of an individual over a range of reasoning skills. The validity of IQ tests, then, only relates to their ability to measure what is taken as g. Their results do historically correlate highly with school performance, but they do so in a declining fashion, that is, starting high in elementary school and reaching a fairly weak correlation by graduation school. This can be interpreted as the tests being highly similar to school testing, thus constituting an alternate measure of the same skills, or to success in graduate school being more related to social or other skills, rather than intelligence.

I tend to think it is the former, and that if IQ scores are declining, the teaching of, modeling of, and practice of using basic reasoning skills might be experiencing a decline, especially vis-a-vis the change to screen-based media. In short, physical interaction with the environment is the age-old method for animal learning, and the simple acts of physically taking notes and making outline summaries of schoolbook chapters (giving structure to information and physically putting that framework down on paper) might be what is missing in a relative sense.

But it is irksome, to say the least, to hear some Trumpling utter articles of religious faith about how the world works, all while simultaneously carrying a mobile phone with GPS. I do not know what kind of dumb that is, but stubborn dumb is a far worse epidemic than declining test scores.
 
... if IQ scores are declining...

There's no evidence in the article that IQ scores are declining. Rather it's that college is no longer reserved for "the brilliant and privileged" so their average IQ is more typical of the general population.
 
There's no evidence in the article that IQ scores are declining. Rather it's that college is no longer reserved for "the brilliant and privileged" so their average IQ is more typical of the general population.

There have been reports from a variety of studies referring to a reverse Flynn effect; ie, declining IQ scores. My post refers to how that might come about, given what IQ tests measure.
 
Last edited:
Surely, the issue is not that IQs have declined but that the educational standards have been lowered such that a bigger percentage of the population is graduating from college?
 
Are you making the claim that those people succeeded despite having low IQs?
No, I'm 'claiming' that they were extremely successful despite not managing to get a degree. Therefore the theory that societal success is highly correlated to academic 'success' and IQ is highly suspect. I suspect a large proportion of academic 'genuises' are actually rotting away in universities doing very little of note, and are certainly not as successful as people like the ones in my list.

I also know a number of people of decidedly average IQ who are more successful than me - because there's a lot more to being successful than just (or even) being a smart alec.
 
Surely, the issue is not that IQs have declined but that the educational standards have been lowered such that a bigger percentage of the population is graduating from college?
Shocking, isn't it? What's the World coming to when any riff-raff can get a degree?

Contrast this with the courses we did when I was a telecommunications technician. We were all expected to know our stuff and pass the tests with high marks. Failure was not an option!

The funny part was that I had achieved a far greater understanding of electronics just by reading library books and hobby magazines than the engineers we worked for - and they wouldn't listen to me because I didn't have a high-powered university education. Not that I am any genius mind you. I just applied myself to a subject I was interested in.
 
Where is the evidence that standards have been lowered rather than say there being more opportunity for more people to do a university degree? When I was the age to go to university there was little expectation that most people would even consider going to university regardless of their academic achievements.
 
Last edited:
Where is the evidence that standards have been lowered rather than say there being more opportunity for more people to do a university degree? When I was the age to go to university there was little expectation that most people would even consider going to university regardless of their academic achievements.

Googling for >lowered educational standards< gets a lot of hits. I not so interested that I will try and track down a definitive answer but the evidence appears to be there.
 

Back
Top Bottom