Debunking Vegetarians

[voidx]

Therefore, I think that it's a bit much to raise animals in (often, but not exclusively) atrocious conditions, and then run them through a production line where they have their throats cut, just so that people can eat their flesh and internal organs. I don't really see how the pleasure of eating meat justifies the suffering that it creates.

What proof or statistics do you have that show in the vast majority that conditions in factory farms is atrocious? Secondly what do we define as suffering in animals. A chicken stuck in a small cage might seem "cruel" to us, but if the chicken does not have the mental capacity to realize its "missing out" on freedom of movement and nonetheless lives a healthy life until killed, well then how cruel is it? These are exactly the types of questions I don't think most people have thought through clearly and critically, without emotion.

As for the killing part I don't buy that part of the arguement. A chicken or any form of livestock would likely suffer a much more painful and violent or prolonged death in the wild than they do in captivity. Now yes the usual comment here is that those chickens wouldn't exist in the first place without our need for meat but again this is a useless philosophical point. The reality is that many people eat meat and will likely continue to do so, if for no other reason than personal choice. So how do we deal with that situation? There are many examples that show that the factory farming industry is by no means incapable of refining its standards due to logical complaints about the treatment of its animals. Their not perfect either, but their not the bloodthirsty chicken massacrers that people often make them out to be.

 

[voidx]

You are missing the point. You have heard of a boycott, right? That is the aim here--to develop a base of support strong enough to effect changes in policy. The way to do this in the modern world is to apply economic pressure, which starts with not buying products from companies you wish to apply pressure to.

I get the point completely. But is there any indication that there is a large decrease in profit, or economic viability to the factory farm industry in recent years? Not that I've heard of, so how effective if the boycott? The only effects I've seen here is when PETA smear campaigns restaurants who are then forced on some level to go back to their suppliers and ask for better standards so PETA will screw off. How well do boycotts tend to work in practice is my point.

 

[ljbrs]

Personally, I do not understand why some people who eat meat would bother their little brains concerning people who prefer not to eat meat.

I usually like to eat things which are said to be good for me. I do not get discombobulated about other people's eating preferences and do not understand why anybody would waste valuable brain cells concerning the eating habits of vegetarians.

Then again, some skeptics like to demolish anything which moves and/or goes against their own personal tastes. They spend too much time looking around at the preferences of others. Perhaps at least an infinitesimal portion of that time could be spent upon scrutinizing their own ideas.

Having been a skeptic for my entire life (i.e., never having been a true believer), I seldom worry about the preferences of others. This forum is, at least partially, for fellow skeptics who might have similar thoughts about many things. I do not think that everybody here should need to think or act alike.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Infinite Ocean

But I don't know why we should only acknowledge human suffering and ignore the suffering of animals - which, I can only assume, is sometimes very similar to the suffering that a human would experience in similar situations.

This is why I believe that killing animals for food is usually 'unnecessarily cruel'.

I agree completely.

And...two quick "anecdotes". First, some people might react differently if they actually saw/heard cows who are being led into a slaughterhouse. It's damned depressing.

Second, the first time I ever had my "meal" killed in front of me was when I was with friends who ordered a chicken dinner in a mountain region of Taiwan. The "dinner" was in the yard in front of us one moment, then beheaded the next. Some time later, it arrived on the plate.

I got sick and left the table, much to my friends puzzlement as they had seen me eat chicken meals elsewhere many times before.

Of course, they were right. If it so personally upsets you to have an animal killed (unnecessarily in terms of your own nutrition or health), it shouldn't upset you only when you see it happen in front of you.

However, I don't expect everyone to feel the way I do about the merits of choosing a vegetarian diet because you don't want to have the animals killed (even when its killed then put in plastic wrap, as if its never been an animal at all).

There are several other good reasons (economy-wise and health-wise) for vegetarianism, too, but if people aren't receptive, I don't push it.

 

[carrot]

How well do boycotts tend to work in practice is my point.

Have you heard of the boycott of the Stamp Act? Or maybe Cesar Chavez? How about the Montgomery Bus Boycott? Boycotts have historically been used to apply economic pressure, especially in labor cases. Simply because the situation here is slightly different, or because not as many people agree with the aims of the boycott is no reason not to work towards change.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I see nothing cruel about eating other animals.

Infinite Ocean, have you protested the lions for eating meat as well? I'm sure that a lion could eat nothing but veggies and live as well.

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

What proof or statistics do you have that show in the vast majority that conditions in factory farms is atrocious?

I don't have any statistics, but it's clear that factory farming is an unpleasant business. In virtually all cases, the animals are confined to tiny spaces where they are almost certain to suffer physical pain. Obviously it is difficult to measure the mental anguish of a chicken.

Secondly what do we define as suffering in animals. A chicken stuck in a small cage might seem "cruel" to us, but if the chicken does not have the mental capacity to realize its "missing out" on freedom of movement and nonetheless lives a healthy life until killed, well then how cruel is it?

I don't know. But I do know that the way that they are kept leads them to develop nasty injuries - hideous sores and so forth.

The reality is that many people eat meat and will likely continue to do so, if for no other reason than personal choice. So how do we deal with that situation? There are many examples that show that the factory farming industry is by no means incapable of refining its standards due to logical complaints about the treatment of its animals. Their not perfect either, but their not the bloodthirsty chicken massacrers that people often make them out to be.

The state of most factory farms indicates that they literally couldn't care less about the well-being of the animals, they are concerned only with how much money they can save by taking short-cuts.

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

I see nothing cruel about eating other animals.

Infinite Ocean, have you protested the lions for eating meat as well? I'm sure that a lion could eat nothing but veggies and live as well.

Lions have no sense of right and wrong, nor do they have the ability to learn how to adapt to eat vegetables. Unless you know something that I don't.

 

[rppa]

I don't have a problem with vegetarians so long as they advocate their diet simply because they feel it is a healthy alternative to eating meats. If they get into the whole animal treatment, animal rights issue, then I'm more bothered by it.

Um, I'm a carnivore and I've switched meat providers because of the whole "animal treatment, animal rights" issue. I know it's an economic issue, but I'm willing to pay the extra cost. Just had some humane hamburgers (or, as we call them around here, "please kill me, Farmer Bob"-burgers) for lunch, as a matter of fact. Yum.

 

[Irish Murdoch]

I was irked by Penn & Teller insisting that vegetarians were all thin and weedy. I'm actually a little overweight

LOL! I'm actually much more than a little overweight! And I'm the full, no meat, no fish, no fowl vegetarian. And it still distresses me to realise that some people here think that makes me equivalent to a believer in Reiki or astrology! I really don't understand that ...

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

Not eating the meat, unless someone can show otherwise, doesn't seem to be putting much of a dent in the output and food production from factory farms. Now yes I realize not eating meat is your own personal way of distancing yourself from that and that's all fine and good. It is however probably having a very neglible effect on reducing any apparent cruelty to the animals in question.

I fully realise that my not eating meat doesn't put a huge dent in anyone's takings. But it's an ethical position that I choose to take.

There are probably a greater proportion of vegetarians in the UK than in many other countries, and it must have a real financial effect on the industry - although obviously not enough to put them out of business, by any means.

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

Well, what if the animals were killed in as humane a way as possible?

I really doubt there is a humane way to kill animals en-masse in a production line environment.

But even if it were possible, I still wouldn't eat it.

 

[Segnosaur]

Here's an article that does a good job at showing the problems with vegitarianism...

http://www.acsh.org/healthissues/newsID.760/healthissue_detail.asp

 

[thaiboxerken]

Lions have no sense of right and wrong, nor do they have the ability to learn how to adapt to eat vegetables. Unless you know something that I don't.

And why does that matter? In nature, there is no "right or wrong". Why do you insist that eating other animals is wrong, when it's just natural?

Carnivores don't adapt to eat vegetables unless they have to. However, to be consistent with your axiom that eating other animals is cruel.. do you think that maybe we, as humans, should train and adapt all lions to become herbivores? The lions don't know "right from wrong", but we do and we can train animals.

 

[Segnosaur]

Infinite Ocean, have you protested the lions for eating meat as well? I'm sure that a lion could eat nothing but veggies and live as well.

That may not necessarily be true... cats need taurine, which I think is only available in meat. (Although I'm not sure if lions have the same dependancy as other cats.)

 

[thaiboxerken]

That may not necessarily be true... cats need taurine, which I think is only available in meat. (Although I'm not sure if lions have the same dependancy as other cats.)

Let's just say, for discussion's sake, that lions don't physically need meat to survive.

 

[Tricky]

LOL! I'm actually much more than a little overweight! And I'm the full, no meat, no fish, no fowl vegetarian. And it still distresses me to realise that some people here think that makes me equivalent to a believer in Reiki or astrology! I really don't understand that ...

Yeah, those cheese and potato dishes can fatten anybody up. Certainly vegetarianism is no guarantee of good health. You still have to eat right.

As to your question about people who assume other things about you because of your dietary choices, it is not justified but there is a reason for it. Too many vegetarians tend to fall into the catagory of "woo woo" because the same things that make them believe that eating meat is bad also make them believe in other unsubstantiated things. One example would be, "I can't eat animals because they have souls too!" or "that pig might be my reincarnated grandfather".

To assume that vegetarians tend to be less critical in thier thinking is wrong, but one has to admit that the traits tend to cluster.
***
Now I want to address Infinite Ocean's assertion that people don't "need" meat. While you are correct that humans can get all of the food value they need for health out of a vegetarian diet, it doesn't address the very real need that some people have to simply enjoy meat. If you are "addicted" to the taste and texture of meat, you will become very unhappy if you are deprived. Why, for example, do all of the products like Boca Burgers and Morningstar Farms try so hard to try to make their soy products resemble and tast like meat? Because many vegetarians crave meat, that's why. Cravings are real needs too, and I have never had a "fake meat" product (and I've tried many) that is even remotely similar to real meat.
***
One of the things I don't understand is why pre-packaged vegetarian food is so expensive. (My wife is a fish-only person, so believe me, I know). Perhaps it is economy of scale, but those Linda McCartney dinners cost about 50% more than what an equivalent meat-containing dinner costs. Maybe they are giving half their profits to PETA.

Now I have to go baste my barbecued ribs. Later, I will put a few slabs of tofu on to barbecue for my wife. Really.

 

[voidx]

Personally, I do not understand why some people who eat meat would bother their little brains concerning people who prefer not to eat meat.

I don't see anyone specifically doing that in this thread. And generally its the other way around. Now I'll be clear and say it hasn't really happened very often to me and I won't say it happens a lot, but its been my experience (however limited) that people that eat meat are chastized for the choice rather than vice versa. At the end of the day I could care less what you choose, but if you decide to discuss it with me, then make points that are logical and objective and not based on emotional responses to animals and their suffering.

I usually like to eat things which are said to be good for me. I do not get discombobulated about other people's eating preferences and do not understand why anybody would waste valuable brain cells concerning the eating habits of vegetarians.

Just as we are at times at a loss to why some vegetarians, or more likely vegans seem concerned over the eating habits of non-vegetarians.

Then again, some skeptics like to demolish anything which moves and/or goes against their own personal tastes. They spend too much time looking around at the preferences of others. Perhaps at least an infinitesimal portion of that time could be spent upon scrutinizing their own ideas.

A blanket statement to be sure, and perhaps not an entirely untrue one, however, I fail to see how the above opinion comes into play with anything that's been said in this thread so far.

Having been a skeptic for my entire life (i.e., never having been a true believer), I seldom worry about the preferences of others. This forum is, at least partially, for fellow skeptics who might have similar thoughts about many things. I do not think that everybody here should need to think or act alike.

Nor do I. Doesn't mean we can't discuss them, or that when it is said that essentialy most livestock animals live in atrocious conditions, we cannot ask for support of that statement.

 

[TLN]

I really doubt there is a humane way to kill animals en-masse in a production line environment.

But even if it were possible, I still wouldn't eat it.

So then your objection is in killing animals, period. You can stop making the cruelty argument now, especially since you can't substantiate it.

Animals eat other animals; that's nature.

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

So then your objection is in killing animals, period. You can stop making the cruelty argument now, especially since you can't substantiate it.

I object to killing and cruelty. And to say that claims of cruelty are unsubstatiated would incidate that you are in denial. Do you really doubt that millions of animals suffer unnecessarily because of the meat industry? Think carefully.

Animals eat other animals; that's nature.

And nature is always good! Have you been picking up debating tips from the true-believers?