Debunking "On Debunking 9/11 Debunking"

Your numbers are wrong on the energy. Your paper is peer reviewed as being overwhelmed with errors! REDO
FAILURE! REDO - Robertson said slow speed lost in the fog. Robertson is the man, he is the final WORD. Slow speed, try using 180 mph and low fuel. WHY?
Because only a lost plane in the fog would be the accident threat! Why low fuel. If you had lots of fuel you would not be lost in the fog in NYC, you would be flying to Miami to land in the clear weather! (or any where else!!!!!!!!!!!) You should have become a pilot and be a EE! You need to redo your research. This one error makes your work a big failure, besides the rest of the errors!
The speed for impact is 180 mph, slow speed! You are wrong! Try harder next time.

Your hard hitting analysis is comical. You reject a white paper that was a completed analysis yet accept Robertson's analysis without him providing any proof whatsoever?
The only accident threat is because of being lost in the fog? And you work on planes, correct? I'm sure you may have heard of mechanical malfunction as a cause of accident, right? So the building stands if the pilot makes an error, but golly the building comes collapsing down if the plane has a malfunction?
I'm inclined to believe Skilling's assessment considering it was done right after the 1993 attack when the structural integrity would have been examined rather extensively instead of an off the cuff comment after the collapses when nothing could be examined.
 
The only accident threat is because of being lost in the fog?
In terms of aircraft smacking into building, yes. You may have noticed that most airports do not have clusters of very tall buildings close to them so as to preclude aircraft from smacking into them.

I'm sure you may have heard of mechanical malfunction as a cause of accident, right?
In the entire history of commercial aviation, how many times has a passenger jet flown into a building as a result of a mechanical or weather related cause?

So the building stands if the pilot makes an error, but golly the building comes collapsing down if the plane has a malfunction?
So all tall buildings should be designed to withstand the physical impact and subsequent fire damage of an aircraft flying at 500 miles per hour? Should tall buildings far away from airports be built with this same level of protection? Could you tell me how many times in the entire history of commerical aviation has a passenger jet flown at very high speed into a building as a result of a mechanical or weather related cause?

I sometimes get the feeling that the only thing you apparently know about aviation is what you saw in the movie Airplane!
 
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Your hard hitting analysis is comical. You reject a white paper that was a completed analysis yet accept Robertson's analysis without him providing any proof whatsoever?
The only accident threat is because of being lost in the fog? And you work on planes, correct? I'm sure you may have heard of mechanical malfunction as a cause of accident, right? So the building stands if the pilot makes an error, but golly the building comes collapsing down if the plane has a malfunction?
I'm inclined to believe Skilling's assessment considering it was done right after the 1993 attack when the structural integrity would have been examined rather extensively instead of an off the cuff comment after the collapses when nothing could be examined.
Name the failure. Come on bring it on! Tell me why planes hit buildings at 600 mph all the time! Come on great truth movement drone, do it! (of all the failures I have had, never did I see on that made me hit a building at 600 mph! What failure would that be? gee whiz, I lost an engine over the artic, and we then could fly further due to more fuel for the other engines! These truth type people watch too many movies.)

Skilling is not the lead engineer, and you can not produce one paper, or one quote of Skilling saying 600 mph. Why, because the writers added the 600 mph when Skilling said Boeing 707. The people who write this junk made the mistake, not Skilling! Skilling and all engineers can see a 600 mph aircraft was never planned on. Why are you unable to see this? Darn, wrong again.

My information comes from years of training to fly, and be an engineer, and actually working as an engineer and a pilot. Where do your great insights come from?

I have proof the speed is slow speed, first hand from the lead engineer, but you ignored it for years, or is it only now you fail to understand facts and evidence and fail to see the errors on the web about 600 mph. Take a look, you will never find 600 mph impact being survivable being planned on, and you can solve this by using physics or paying attention. Wrong again. You need to learn how to read and what is sourced and what is added by idiots.

Greg's paper is a failure, simple junk.
 
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beachnut,

It might be instructive to design a net that could CATCH a 767 at 600 mph with deceleration loads a human and the seat the human is in might survive.

Which I believe is 3 G.

if t = v(1) - v(0) / a, and v(1) is 600 mph and a is -3Gs then it takes roughly 9 seconds to stop the aircraft. During that time the aircraft would cover around 4000 feet.

So our device has to be a mile long and be able to restrain an 85 ton jetliner at 3Gs constant over almost a mile...

I think we can stop designing now, as we are clearly into the realm of super-strength scifi materials. :D
 
Debunking Debunking Debunking Debunking 9/11 Debunking nuh uh uh hum nuh uh huh nope yes it is no its not MOOOOOM THE GUY FROM TEH INTERWEBZ IS BEIN' MEAN!
 
Your hard hitting analysis is comical. You reject a white paper that was a completed analysis yet accept Robertson's analysis without him providing any proof whatsoever?
The only accident threat is because of being lost in the fog? And you work on planes, correct? I'm sure you may have heard of mechanical malfunction as a cause of accident, right? So the building stands if the pilot makes an error, but golly the building comes collapsing down if the plane has a malfunction?
I'm inclined to believe Skilling's assessment considering it was done right after the 1993 attack when the structural integrity would have been examined rather extensively instead of an off the cuff comment after the collapses when nothing could be examined.

Neither of the towers collapsed when the airplanes slammed into them at 466 MPH and 545 MPH respectively.

(Source for speed: Wikipedia)
 
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I'll work a little on these issues with the actual core size data and get back to you.

The book "Impact - The Theory and Physical Behaviour of Colliding Solids" by Goldsmith will have more information on impacts - along with very messy equations - than you will ever want to know. Unfortunately, even though he gets into plastic deformation and plastic waves (not just elastic theory), and even though he goes into the (elastic) theory of a metal ball striking a beam transversally, I don't see any treatment of a relevant failure scenario. However, you might be able to determine some lower bounds.

He does get into the theory of a projectile striking a plate, and rupturing it by producing petals.

The book was first published in 1960, so WTC engineers had a basis for making at least rough estimates with theory that existed at that time. Goldsmith often refers to tests of the theory, so it's not just mathematics.
 
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For WTC1, it will be quite easy to show that the energy was split over at least two floors and that less than 5% was applied to the core. Essentially only 4% of the debris wave had an orientation and trajectory to enable a free shot at the core columns after passing through the external shell. The rest of the debris was hindered by the floor slab, the truss matix, and 67 tons of office contents.

Well, I don't know about "easy." You also have to keep in mind that there was a lot of potential for secondary damage, so the 4% with a "free shot" doesn't tell the whole story. Personally I've eyeballed it at 5%, and further assumed that the spread over two floors nonetheless hits the same columns, so the destruction energy of those columns is (to first order) not affected by the vertical spread. But it's just a WAG (Wild-Ass Guess).

Also, the energy was not applied as a single impulse but rather spread out over time (~0.5 seconds). This further reduces the potential damage. For example: two simultaneous impacts with a combined energy equivalent to the failure energy will fail the column. However, the same two impacts a second apart will not fail the column. The question remains how close together the impacts need to be to fail the column. Nonetheless, a continuous wave of debris over 0.5 seconds is much different than a single impact with equivalent energy.

Yes, quite. NIST discusses this in some depth in NCSTAR1-2, in discussing the different pressure-impulse curves to fail different columns. Also, most columns that are going to fail would not have withstood until the very last of the 0.5-second aircraft duration, but instead failed upon being hit by the shorter and sharper impact of flattened aircraft and the leading edge of entrained debris. In any case, the total energy is still plausible.

If I may indulge in turnabout, Dr. Wierzbicki estimated that about 30% of the impact energy was expended on the columns -- much higher than either you or I have speculated. No, I don't agree with this, but proving otherwise is not so trivial.

A significant portion of the energy available to be applied to the core was the impacting fuel mass. Liquid is much less effective at momentum or energy transfer. In fact NIST concluded that the fuel could not fail core columns.

Fuel alone, no, but only because of dispersal at the perimeter. Had the wing sections impacted core columns directly, some could have failed. In any case, this is why we expect the majority of core damage to lie axially along the aircraft's fuselage, which is what NIST predicted. The fuel evolution is much more important for perimeter column damage, destruction and mobility of furniture, and fireproofing damage than core damage, for both towers.

In any case, remember that my 5% is just a guess. The point is that there was a marked excess of energy available to cause the damage NIST predicted. This is my answer to Dr. Griffin's claim that the aircraft should have inflicted virtually no significant structural damage -- a claim, I remind you, that he offers without any calculation whatsoever.

We can, of course, refine our estimates. If we do so ad nauseum we will eventually end up with a near copy of NCSTAR1-2B, or perhaps the Purdue results. I'm satisfied with both of those until someone demonstrates where they went wrong. My 5% guess is just a grossly simplified way of explaining those results.

Your hard hitting analysis is comical. You reject a white paper that was a completed analysis yet accept Robertson's analysis without him providing any proof whatsoever?
The only accident threat is because of being lost in the fog? And you work on planes, correct? I'm sure you may have heard of mechanical malfunction as a cause of accident, right? So the building stands if the pilot makes an error, but golly the building comes collapsing down if the plane has a malfunction?
I'm inclined to believe Skilling's assessment considering it was done right after the 1993 attack when the structural integrity would have been examined rather extensively instead of an off the cuff comment after the collapses when nothing could be examined.

Swing, I understand you're responding to beachnut, but since this thread concerns my whitepaper, I should tell you that you've missed the point. The point is that Dr. Griffin is using the 1964 study and Skilling's off-hand comments to remark that the structures were designed to specific requirements that they must survive an impact with a jetliner at speed. This is not so. The existence of a worst-case analysis does not imply the existence of any such requirement. Designers routinely perform analyses of scenarios that are far beyond any actual requirement, design envelope, or anticipated event.

And again, while I'm sure such a study was done (albeit probably at an extremely low level of fidelity), and Skilling did make such a comment, they were both grievously in error. Both actual events demonstrated this, and every analysis after the fact confirms this. It is a complete non sequitur.
 
The fact is 4 commerical jets were hijacked by 19 Islaminc radicals and crashed into buildings on purpose. 3 succeeded causing collapse of the hit buildings and several surrounding buildings. Case closes. No contrary evidence has yet to have been produced,
 

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