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Debunking Noah, and I need some help

Mudcat said:
Actual tried that already.

"Do you think G-d wouldn't protect the inspired word of the Torah from being changed to the point where it loses all meaning?" was her response to that and the fact that it was all an oral tradition before being written down for an abnormally long time.
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Have a look at the tree diagram in the picture below.


It shows the family tree of the Bible versions we have today.

MT (far right) = Masoretic bible which is the Hebrew bible we have and the oldest copy of it is from the 7th century CE. Notice how it is a copy of a copy and both ancestors do not exist any longer. Also it is in Block Hebrew which is in fact Aramaic script and not Ancient Hebrew. It also has the Nikudot which are the vowels that the original Hebrew script never had and were added in the 7th Centurey CE.

Vulgate = Latin bible used by the Vatican.

LXX (lower far left)= Septuagint bible which is the Greek bible used by Paul and Matthew and Mark et al.


So as you can see we do NOT have any originals of the Bible. And as your mother rightfully mentioned....even the lost originals were based on TRADITIONS (i.e. Myths) long before they were written down.

Why would the "traditions" that were written down in the Bible which we no longer have be any less FABULOUS than any other "traditions" by any other people that were also written down (e.g. Vedas, Mahabharata etc.).

Why would the Tanakh be any truer than the Quran that is mostly the Tanakh anyway....how do we know that the Quran is not YHWH giving us a new book .....just like he did with Daniel or Esther or Samuel or Kings which are newer books that came after the Torah? How do we know that YHWH did not intend that the Quran be yet one more book to be added as part of the Tanakh….or maybe the Talmud if not the Tanakh? Or the New Testament?

Which Talmud is truer the Yerushalmi or Bavli Talmud?Why would the Tannaim Rabbis be any more authorotative than Mohammad or the Geonim Rabbis?

It seems it all is about WHO SURVIVED and who did not and who ever survived is right….. i.e. Might is Right, or in the case of Judaism since they never really had much might, it is down to …. LUCK OF THE DRAW…. whoever did not get utterly massacred by the ruling empire of the time got to define the new trend of Judaism and the West and the East versions of Judaism… never the twain shall meet.


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"Debunking Noah, and I need some help"

You know you're in trouble when you need help debunking this one!

*joking*

While I am wasting text here, I recommend anyone watch Joe Rogan's comedy bit on teaching the flood story to a mentally handicapped child.
 
Jonnyclueless said:
"Debunking Noah, and I need some help"

You know you're in trouble when you need help debunking this one!

*joking*

While I am wasting text here, I recommend anyone watch Joe Rogan's comedy bit on teaching the flood story to a mentally handicapped child.
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Good call Jonnyclueless! You'll find it here people, with the added bonus of an after show interview with an archaeologist who had been in the audience and happened to have been involved in the search for the Ark.

It's NSFW and may offend as it is not very PC with regard to mental disability.
 
Years ago I saw a list online of all the things wrong with the Noah's Arc story. I have since been unable to find the link. But I remember a few things.

#1. You can not generate a species from a single male and female pair.

#2. If the planet was flooded, either all the freshwater or all the saltwater fishes would become extinct.

#3. Different materials have different size thresholds. The size of the arc is greater than what is possible for a wooden ship.

#4. There is a variety of subspecies that would not have had the time to evolve and/or the arc would not have had enough space for them.

#5. The arc story is very similar to earlier religious stories that predate the Jews. Gilgamish has an arc and flood story which is almost identical apart from the fact that there are gods instead of one god. It is logical to assume that the story worked its way into the Hebrew stories by word of mouth and found its way into King David's selection of stories for the Torah.

#6. If the whole planet was once flooded there would be evidence everywhere. Instead, there is no evidence anywhere.
 
bluesjnr said:
Good call Jonnyclueless! You'll find it here people, with the added bonus of an after show interview with an archaeologist who had been in the audience and happened to have been involved in the search for the Ark.

It's NSFW and may offend as it is not very PC with regard to mental disability.
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Didn't he do this same bit with Moses and the Exodus?
 
UnrepentantSinner said:
Bill. "Arc" is a curved line segment. "Ark" is a vessel.
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You are right.
I must be getting old.:scared:

Or lazier in my posting on online forums.
I mean, I think I would catch that if it was a blog or a book.
There seems to be too many trolls and people just looking to hurt people's feelings here that are taking the wind out of my sails.

Or maybe it is because I am bilingual. And it is the cost to pay.
 
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slingblade said:
Trust me, I'm not the one who's confused.

What I told you was the belief of those with whom I attended church. It is the belief of most of my family, as well. They think the flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, and then the waters receded and land reappeared. This is the story they taught me. When I tried to tell any of them they weren't counting enough days (I was a child, remember), they told me I wasn't reading it right.

I never brought it up again. And now, the point is moot.
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I remember some of the song you referenced. Here's another.

Rained 40 days and 40 nights without stopping
Noah was glad when the rain stopped dropping
Knock at the window, knock at the door
Crying brother Noah can't ya take on more
Noah cried no, you're full of sin
God got the key and you can't get in​
Great story. My drowning neighbors were knocking, but I said no. Gotta save these 2 koalas. Hey Shem, where'd you put the eucalyptus tree?
 
On a somewhat related topic, I have been encountering claims of Chinese global flood legend, which is supposed to be backed up by an interpretation of certain Chinese characters. I don't find it implausible that the Chinese would have a flood story, but it being embedded in their script, and backig up the Noachian flood I have some trouble with. Anyone qualified to comment on the claim?

http://creationwiki.org/Chinese_glyph_for_"ark"_is_literally_"8_mouths"_(Talk.Origins)
 
Besides the link which was given in an earlier post (part 1 and part 2), here are some more that are great too.


The list of problems in this video is great and some of the flow charts are great
In this video minutes 3:24 to 5:00 are GREAT and the ending.(5:52 to end)
This video if FUNNY I loooove the ending (5:30 to end)

Also see these
Also watch this video about how in Australia ecological niches were filled but instead of by normal mammalian evolution, it was by marsupial evolution.
 
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Brian-M said:
The Bible gets around this with Genesis 6:3

Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

As far as fundamentalists are concerned, people (such as Noah) lived much longer before God put this limit on the human lifespan.
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I wonder how they explain Jeanne Calment then. (She made it to the grand old age of 122)
 
LSSBB said:
I think your key is Methuselah. There are discrepancies in how long he lived and any way you count it he outlived the flood, start from there.
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As far as I can tell, the only text that shows Methuselah outliving the flood is in the Codex Vaticanus. The other texts have him dying the same year as the flood.
 
Arguing with true believers (on any subject) is nearly always pointless and fruitless. Fundamentalists believe that "Because God! That's why, God!" is a valid counter to almost any position, and answer to almost any question. In the few cases where that doesn't fit, or isn't sufficient, it's "Because Satan! That's why, Satan!"

Earlier today on another forum I frequent, I witnessed an exchange between an atheist and a fundamentalist. They were arguing about abortion.

Atheist said:
He did drown the entire earth...
I know the "everybody was evil" context. But how could chldren and unborn babies be evil enough to warrant death at God's hand?
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Fundamentalist said:
Sigh... the same old canards to be answered, but here goes:

As per Genesis, creation's integrity was destroyed because of "giants in the earth", the offspring of rebellious angels who "thought the daughters of men fair, and took of them all they wished". These offspring were "mighty men of old" and pretty much lorded it over weaker humans, and much violence became a way of life on the planet. This grieved God, and thus the slate had to be wiped clean, as it were. Noah and his family were not tainted thusly, and so, along with his great faith, mankind was able to survive by obeying God in the second chance offered.

When a barrel becomes tainted, you can't "sort through" the entire barrel and take a chance on finding remnants that may or may not prove to be untainted... you pretty much have to discard the whole works, lest you perpetuate the same issues that came about by said tainting.

This is straight science and common sense... which mankind himself follows.

Yet you would dare judge God as cruel?

Aim your ire at the correct target, namely, Satan... it's through the Devil that mankind's ills came about and continue to do so... if God on occasion has to resort to hard justice, He's doing what needs doing, so that His Will and Ultimate Plan for mankind is not upended by His adversaries.
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"This is straight science and common sense... which mankind himself follows." :jaw-dropp
 
Iv'e asked before but, What did Noah do about the massive amounts of feces and urine produced by that many animals?
 
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