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Debunk This

I think it's a misnomer to talk about fire weakening the steel. NIST's collapse sequence does not require any steel to be weakened by fire to the point of failure. The only part of the sequence that involves exposure to fire directly is the sagging of the floor trusses, and indeed this requires that they do NOT fail.

The exterior column failure, which produced the collapse itself, was caused by an inward pulling of the columns. It seems patently obvious to me that vertical columns pulled inwards will eventually collapse - whether weakened by fire or not.

The actual collapse trigger itself was purely mechanical, not thermal. It changed the nature of the load bearing on the column. They were designed to carry loads through compression, instead that load bearing changed, and essentially folded the columns in half.

Redundancy is also irrelevant as the bowing occurred across the entire face. A building like that won't remain intact if you remove ALL of the columns on one side.

-Gumboot
 
Trumpman critique, part 4

This thread's been in quite a few different directions since it started and I don't know whether anyone's still interested (or ever was), but I thought I should just finish off my comments on the Trumpman paper that started all this. After all, the OP asked for comments and suggested that the paper merited serious study. My conclusion, after giving it that study, is: no it doesn't. Here are the last few reasons why not, broken down by section. This covers the last, shorter, sections of the paper.

Discussion on Explosives

This short section begins with an exhortation on the part of the author to the reader to replicate his analysis and conclusions using his data, which is backed up by discussion of features of the collapse which supposedly make this analysis simpler. He proposes three main features of the collapse of WTC1 which simplify such analysis. Of these, the first is that the WTC1 collapse was not "all at once making modeling complex" but floor-by-floor. However, this is fallacious, as conventional bottom-up controlled demolitions result in floor-by-floor collapses. The second is that "a large quantity of explosives" was used, which fallaciously presents Trumpman's conclusion as a starting assumption. The third is that air volume changes in the collapse can be measured accurately because of the smoke from the fire. This is based on the assumption that there is a known and limited degree of mixing between air originating inside the building and air originating outside, an assumption which Trumpman makes no credible attempt to justify. He concludes this section with a quote from Controlled Demolition Inc. about the J. L. Hudson building which refers to the need to pre-weaken structural members too large for commercial shaped charges, which, while supporting his assumption that very large quantities of explosives would be required without such pre-weakening, does nothing to support the credibility of his hypothesis that this was in fact how it was done.

What Explosive Type Used

In another example of non-reasoning to a conclusion, Trumpman lists the melting points of four types of high explosive and states that HMX, the one with the highest melting point (285C) was used to initiate the collapse because "It can survive 270 C+ heat without premature detonation or failure". The significance of 270 C is not discussed anywhere, as Trumpman makes no attempt anywhere in the paper to estimate fire temperatures, quoting only NIST's estimate that some steel members were heated to 500-600 C. The feasibility of using explosives is not therefore established at all.

Where Charges were Placed

Starting with the statement, "I am not a demolition professional but I can point out the obvious", Trumpman asserts that charges were detonated at the connection of the floor trusses to the perimeter wall on the first few floors to collapse, then only in the core as the collapse progressed in order to "keep the collapse centred", and that this would duplicate the truss theory "minus the 'bowed' columns". The inability of Trumpman's hypothesis to replicate this well-documented observation is ignored, unless the placing of the word "bowed" in quotes is intended to cast doubt on the bowing observed. He implies that explosives on the core columns lower down created pools of molten steel at the column foundations, although not only is there doubt that molten metal was observed and no reason to identify any molten metal present as steel, but also high explosives would not produce significant quantities of molten steel as they work by blast overpressure. He implies in an earlier section that thermite might have been placed lower down in the structure but could not be used for the collapse initiation due to timing difficulties; the suggestion that thermite was used, not to initiate the collapse, but to sustain it, where timing would have been even more critical, makes no sense at all.

One paragraph of this section demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of the laws of physics. Trumpman earlier calculated that the collapse of floor 97 was faster than free-fall, and he attempts to explain this measurement by suggesting that the upper section was pulled downwards by the core columns being compromised lower in the building. This would require that the rate of acceleration of an object in free fall was dependent on its mass, a belief disproved by Galileo. He quickly moves on from this gaffe to assert that the upper structure in the collapse would have "slid around randomly during the collapse and toppled off to the side" without detonation of the core columns, again with no attempt at justification. He concludes the section by arguing that the jets of white clouds expelled below the collapse front could only have been explosions, in a self-contradictory line of reasoning that argues that: the material ejected was white smoke, therefore it could not have been smoke from the fires which was black, therefore it must have been due to explosives generating concrete dust, therefore the material ejected was not white smoke.

How Much Explosives Was Used (sic)

Bizarrely, Trumpman begins by arguing that a vastly excessive amount of explosive would be less noticeable than a small amount, based on the assumption that large clouds of smoke are less obvious than small ones. This line of argument would perhaps be more defensible if explosives created no flame or sound. Based on his assumption of limited air mixing, Trumpman calculates that 1.4 tons of HMX were required to create the excess volume of air emitted from floor 97 alone. He makes no attempt to estimate how many floors required a similar amount of explosive or how much would need to be attached to each core column at what interval. However, he includes a comparison with the J. L. Hudson building demolition in which it is stated that nine floors conatined charges, and his calculations appear to assume that the same number of floors contained charges in WTC1. There is no justification given for this assumption, nor is there any speculation on how the charges would need to be placed to cope with uncertainties over the location of the aircraft impact zone. As elsewhere, this section is punctuated by a disjointed rant in which Trumpman reiterates several well-known truth movement canards and attacks the personal integrity of everyone involved in investigations of 9/11.



Concluding remarks on Trumpman's paper

Despite including a number of calculations and extensive data (at least one item of which is wildly incorrect - see part 1) on the WTC1 fires and collapse energies, this paper does not in general make any use of the results of these calculations in reaching its conclusions. Overall, it is instead largely an exercise in proof by assertion, disguised as a scientific paper by the presence of data tables and arithmetic. While this may look impressive on a quick reading, in fact there is no credible evidence of controlled demolition of WTC1 presented here.

Dave
 
The exterior column failure, which produced the collapse itself, was caused by an inward pulling of the columns. It seems patently obvious to me that vertical columns pulled inwards will eventually collapse - whether weakened by fire or not.
Yes, but we can see that there were fires on the floors where bowing occurred, so can surmise that the steel was not as strong as steel at normal temperatures. Therefore the bowing was exacerbated by the fires - without the heated perimeter columns, the bowing would not have been as pronounced as it was, at the time that they bowed anyway.

I guess my point is that I agree the building would have catastrophically failed, once the columns had bowed, whether they were heated or not, but had they not been heated, they might not have bowed as much as they did.
 
Yes, but we can see that there were fires on the floors where bowing occurred, so can surmise that the steel was not as strong as steel at normal temperatures. Therefore the bowing was exacerbated by the fires - without the heated perimeter columns, the bowing would not have been as pronounced as it was, at the time that they bowed anyway.

I guess my point is that I agree the building would have catastrophically failed, once the columns had bowed, whether they were heated or not, but had they not been heated, they might not have bowed as much as they did.
Or, as soon as they did.

By the way, have our resident conspiracy theorists imstellar and traitorbasher completely abandoned this topic, or is it just me?
 
Yes, but we can see that there were fires on the floors where bowing occurred, so can surmise that the steel was not as strong as steel at normal temperatures. Therefore the bowing was exacerbated by the fires - without the heated perimeter columns, the bowing would not have been as pronounced as it was, at the time that they bowed anyway.

I guess my point is that I agree the building would have catastrophically failed, once the columns had bowed, whether they were heated or not, but had they not been heated, they might not have bowed as much as they did.

They would not have bowed at all. As temperature in steel increaes, the modulus of elasticty decreases. This "magnifies" the deflection. This is in addition to the loss of strength that the steel sees. What eventually happens is that the steel elongates and pulls down and it's behavior changes more to that of a tension only member (think a chain or a rope). Previously the steel trusses were bearing on the angle seats. This produces only a vertical load on the column (and a small amount of bending moment based on the eccentricity of the connection). After the fire, there is not enough stiffness in the steel to purely rest on the angle seat. Instead, the joists are pulling on the 5/8" diameter bolts.

For those who are wondering, two A307 (junk bolts) 5/8" bolts (at room temperature) have a shear strength of 11.04kips (11,040pounds). If those are A325 bolts, it's 22.0 kips, and A490 27.6 kips. The NIST reports say that these bolts are high-strength, which means that they are not A307 (you can get those in a hardware store). I'm not sure what type of bolts were used in the 60's and 70's though, but this is a decent comparison.
 
Or, as soon as they did.

By the way, have our resident conspiracy theorists imstellar and traitorbasher completely abandoned this topic, or is it just me?

P'doh recently claimed that it was due to refraction of light from a high temperature fire.
 
Would that not be a somewhat self-debunking claim, anyway? If his argument is that the fires weren't hot enough to weaken the structures significantly . . .
 
Yes, but we can see that there were fires on the floors where bowing occurred, so can surmise that the steel was not as strong as steel at normal temperatures. Therefore the bowing was exacerbated by the fires - without the heated perimeter columns, the bowing would not have been as pronounced as it was, at the time that they bowed anyway.

I guess my point is that I agree the building would have catastrophically failed, once the columns had bowed, whether they were heated or not, but had they not been heated, they might not have bowed as much as they did.



I doubt it actually made much difference. The exterior columns were exposed to outside air, and the photographic evidence indicates they weren't engulfed in flames. I doubt the exterior columns actually got very hot at all.





They would not have bowed at all.


I totally disagree.

If the floor trusses are sagging, and the connections between the trusses and the exterior columns are intact, the exterior columns have to bow inwards. The photographic evidence and the analysis done by NIST indicate that the exterior columns did not reach significant temperatures.

Their failure was almost exclusively force-related, not heat related.

-Gumboot
 
gumboot, I was saying that if they weren't heated (beyond a certain point) the exterior columns wouldn't have bowed at all. Normally the bendy forces (moment from a vertical force on an eccentric connection) are minimal. They won't perceptibly bend the columns. When the fire heated the trusses up, they lost their ability to carry bending moments (likely due to the web members buckling in compression) and they began sagging. This is known at catenary action (think a chain or a rope) and the truss becomes tension only pulling at the bolts connecting to the column.

The very large deflections were likely due to P-delta effects because of this catenary action. This is analogous to a straw that your trying to crush between your fingers. If the straw is short enough, you likely can't make it bend. However if you give it a little poke in the middle, the whole thing collapses. This is a crude example of P-delta.
 
I doubt it actually made much difference. The exterior columns were exposed to outside air, and the photographic evidence indicates they weren't engulfed in flames. I doubt the exterior columns actually got very hot at all.

I reckon they look engulfed:
6-45_wtc1-south-face.jpg
 
gumboot, I was saying that if they weren't heated (beyond a certain point) the exterior columns wouldn't have bowed at all. Normally the bendy forces (moment from a vertical force on an eccentric connection) are minimal.



This doesn't make any sense to me... can you explain why the exterior columns would not be pulled inwards by sagging trusses if the exterior columns were not heated up?
 
I reckon they look engulfed:
[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/wtc-gallery/nist1-5fd/6-45_wtc1-south-face.jpg[/qimg]


Percentage wise, only a fraction of the exterior area is covered by fire there, and the area immediately below the first is where you can quite clearly see the bowing in columns (that's actually a fantastic photo for showing the degree of bowing that was occurring).

If you look at the NIST report the intense temperatures tended to be on the floor area, not around the edges. And just another reminder, the exterior columns were of course exposed to the outside air, thus would have been able to release their heat very rapidly.

-Gumboot
 
"someone needs to study CD before he is exposed as a poor researcher"

Can you help me out its pretty hard to search for controlled demolition without having a thousand entires related to 9/11 pop up.

Don't tell me this is O.L the commie troll of GFS?
Please let it be just another pdoh sock... spare us all!
 
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This paper analyzes the first moments of the WTC 1 collapse on 9-11. Phenomena are documented that is impossible to explain by a natural gravity collapse and point to the use of high explosives.

Like flying a 747 full of fuel into the side you mean?


starts badly and goes down hill from there. Surprised this thread is still going.
 
This doesn't make any sense to me... can you explain why the exterior columns would not be pulled inwards by sagging trusses if the exterior columns were not heated up?

This is what happens when I use ambigious pronouns. By "they" I meant the floor trusses. If the floor trusses would not have entered catenary action, the columns never would have bowed (to the same measurable extent).

Sorry for the BIG confusion.
 

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