Debunk-a-LIHOP

[Caustic Logic]

The shoot down order was issued just after 10, which was after the attack had finished. At this stage, of course, NORAD didn't know the attacks had finished, and indeed they continued chasing suspected hijacked aircraft all afternoon.

IF it were all a surprise, yes. Otherwise, Cheney for example may've known they were acting after the fact.

The commanders at NORAD made the sensible and obvious decision that the shoot down authorisation would not be passed on to pilots as a general clearance to shoot anything they felt like. That's an excellent way of getting a non-hijacked airliner shot down.

Instead, shoot down would be issued on a case-by-case basis only after successful interception.

Since no hijacked aircraft were intercepted on 9/11, a shoot down order is something of a moot point.

-Gumboot

Aha! No intercepts - no intelligence - sent the wrong way -
Perhaps no-shoot down auth was the decision by guys who weren't certain fighters would be kept away, afraid of spoiling the attack halfway in. It became redundant of course as fighters never did get near their tagets in time, and were in fact never informed their targets existed until they were gone. Or am I wrong on that?

Yes, I said perhaps. If I had proof, would i be alive?

 

[gumboot]

True enough, but if NORAD wasn't helping FAA track things, why hurry to clear the screens? Just for good measure? In fact I thought NORAD was involved with FAA in this regard, weren't they? So the blips might've been a problem, at first anyway, until there was smoke from the WTC. Not a major point anyway, just supportive.

Hypothesising for a moment that NORAD did have false radar contacts on their scopes on 9/11, they'd want to clear them immediately so they could use their scopes to track the hijacked aircraft.

As I've mentioned, the tapes from NEADS don't indicate any confusion with false radar contacts.

Which NORAD exercise? I'd heard NV was in swing and the blips had to be erased when the attack was known?

Northern Vigilance was scheduled to start at 9am. When the call from Boston ARTCC arrived, Colonel Marr was giving a final briefing in the Battle Cab and the ID Techs were talking about furniture. The MCC (Major Nasypany) wasn't even on the ops floor, and had to be paged.

I had wondered about the 'phantom' Flight 11 reported at 9:20 at least, but now I think that might be from an erred FAA memo mentioning a gun fired on Flight 11 at 9:18. http://they-let-it-happen.blogspot.com/2007/03/mistaken-faa-info-some-or.html

Anyne care to debunk this theory?

I suggest you ask a poster here called CheapShot because he's the guy that told NEADS about the "phantom AA11".

Q: Flight 11 was the first hijacked aircraft. It hit the North Tower of World Trade Center at 08:46 am. Shortly after that moment flight 11 was still believed to be flying towards Washington DC, this being the so called 'Phantom flight 11'. Could you talk about your experiences related to flight 11? The calls you made, the tracking of the flight, what lead to the assumption it was still in the air.

Cheap Shot: I wouldn’t say shortly, that to me means a couple of minutes on that day. I am not sure of the timeline reference my call about Phantom AAL11, but it was probably 12 to 18 minutes later when I made that call.

...

We need to confirm who hit the WTC, because we are now hearing about all other kinds of aircraft being hijacked. Dan Bueno the STMCIC, Joe Cooper, and Bo Dean start attempting to call the airlines to verify if those aircraft are really down, or to confirm that some of these other aircraft are hijacked. UAL Airlines confirms within minutes that UAL175 is down and had hit the WTC. We can never get a confirmation from AAL Airlines that AAL11 is down. I some how get involved on a security Telcon from Washington HQ, where information is being passed fairly quickly. I don’t know who is on it, but I assume FAA HQ, sounds like Washington National (DCA), Regional personnel, and other FAA facilities. I here a call about an AAL11 still being in the air. Once I heard this, I immediately made a call to NEADS to advise them that AAL11 is still in the air heading for what I assume is DC. They ask whom hit the other Tower then and all I can say is I don’t know, but it wasn’t AAL11.

As it turned out AAL11 was only a ghost aircraft and never did exist. It did get the military up quicker than they would have. To this day no one supposedly knows who made that statement on that Telcon about AAL11 being in the air. I now know where the call came from what office, but I am not sure whom in that office made the call or why that statement was made. There are a couple scenarios why that statement could have falsely been made. None of them I believe should cause the skepticism that has been associated with AAL11 Phantom Flight. First it could have been a dropped call sign. If someone had made a mention on any phone call about another AAL flight such as radar lost on AAL77 or any other AAL flight about it being in the air. If someone didn’t mention the Call Numbers “11” then someone could have mistakenly thought they were talking about AAL11. This is what I believe happened. Second, with several Telcons going on at once some people believe that the information was delayed and became old news, and was somehow repeated later by someone who had just heard about it on another telcon. So they think they have new information and say that AAL11 is still in the air. The third theory is that some people had overheard or repeated what we were trying to find out at TMU was that AAL airlines would never confirm the aircraft down so therefore it must be still in the air.

Source

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

Perhaps no-shoot down auth was the decision by guys who weren't certain fighters would be kept away, afraid of spoiling the attack halfway in. It became redundant of course as fighters never did get near their tagets in time, and were in fact never informed their targets existed until they were gone. Or am I wrong on that?

Yes, I said perhaps. If I had proof, would i be alive?

You're accusing Major Nasypany and Colonel Marr of treason. That's quite an allegation to make without any evidence whatsoever.

-Gumboot

 

[beachnut]

IF it were all a surprise, yes. Otherwise, Cheney for example may've known they were acting after the fact.

Aha! No intercepts - no intelligence - sent the wrong way -
Perhaps no-shoot down auth was the decision by guys who weren't certain fighters would be kept away, afraid of spoiling the attack halfway in. It became redundant of course as fighters never did get near their tagets in time, and were in fact never informed their targets existed until they were gone. Or am I wrong on that?

Yes, I said perhaps. If I had proof, would i be alive?

If you had proof you would have a Pulitzer Prize. Simple stuff.

The pilots do not require a shoot down order; but Gumboot's information is reality. He could be the General, or at least tell the General how it works. The way Gumboot said it would happen, is more correct than me saying I could shoot down a threat on my own. But I am saying without a shoot down order, I could excise my right to live up to my oath as an Air Force Officer; as I believe. Now that is debatable, but Gumboots information sounds like a damn manual, but in practical language; I see it as what we strived for training pilots! Getting pilots to use and exercise judgment based on knowledge; Gumboot explanations sound like the manuals and instructions with judgment built IN.

If there was funny stuff going on, NORAD people and Air Force people would report it, and put the idiots on trial.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Hypothesising for a moment that NORAD did have false radar contacts on their scopes on 9/11, they'd want to clear them immediately so they could use their scopes to track the hijacked aircraft.

As I've mentioned, the tapes from NEADS don't indicate any confusion with false radar contacts.

Northern Vigilance was scheduled to start at 9am. When the call from Boston ARTCC arrived, Colonel Marr was giving a final briefing in the Battle Cab and the ID Techs were talking about furniture. The MCC (Major Nasypany) wasn't even on the ops floor, and had to be paged.

Yes, you did say that. I haven't listened to more than a bit of the tapes, so I'm sure you know better than I. Alright then, blips unlikely, and irrelevant either way. No evidence of confusion caused by blips probably = no blip-induced confusion.

I suggest you ask a poster here called CheapShot because he's the guy that told NEADS about the "phantom AA11".

Wow! I had no idea... I'll have to see what he thinks of that memo. Thanks for the tip.

- Caustic

 

[Caustic Logic]

You're accusing Major Nasypany and Colonel Marr of treason. That's quite an allegation to make without any evidence whatsoever.

-Gumboot

Huh? I had meant Cheney and/or Bush, are they not the top of the shoot-down food chain? These allegations are ultimately serious enough anyway, but shouldn't be too shocking by now. You admit it was passed on after 10:00, which is when Bush passed it to Cheney (most documented time: 10:18). Rummy got it at 10:30, it was passed to NEADS at 10:31. After that I'm sure everyone passed it on except, as far as I've seen, to the first five fighter pilots.

I've seen no evidence of obstruction or anything from Marr, Nasypany, anyone like that. So what am I missing here?

 

[Caustic Logic]

If you had proof you would have a Pulitzer Prize. Simple stuff.

You really think they'd give me a Pulitzer for proving a crime that would undermine the USG, destabilize the economy, spread chaos and doubt, etc.? What band of anarchist radicals do you think sit on these boards?

The pilots do not require a shoot down order; but Gumboot's information is reality. He could be the General, or at least tell the General how it works. The way Gumboot said it would happen, is more correct than me saying I could shoot down a threat on my own. But I am saying without a shoot down order, I could excise my right to live up to my oath as an Air Force Officer; as I believe. Now that is debatable, but Gumboots information sounds like a damn manual, but in practical language; I see it as what we strived for training pilots! Getting pilots to use and exercise judgment based on knowledge; Gumboot explanations sound like the manuals and instructions with judgment built IN.

I appreciate that, and like to think I too would've done the right thing with or without orders in the same situation. Perhaps people who think like you is why the pilots were essentially kept away from intercept proximity. Or just chance, who knows for sure...

As for "judgment based on knowledge," consider that the Otis pilots, who had a shot perhaps at Flight 175, were never told it existed, or that Flight 11 had crashed into anything, until they saw smoke coming from both towers. The Langley fighters saw smoke from the Pentagon and were THEN still not told it was a plane, and never informed of Flight 93 coming in. They were gunning for the phantom 11 we hear, until the Pentagon attack was done.

Radar problems.
Communications problems.
Capping months of intel negligence.
And then the New American Century.

I blame no one in particular, certainly not the honorable folks who did their best with what they had, for how things happened.
Nonetheless, it happened, and this overall pattern still seems rather disturbing to me.

If there was funny stuff going on, NORAD people and Air Force people would report it, and put the idiots on trial.

I would hope so, but perhaps it's not clear enough for them to see. It helps the 'idiots' that they are anything but idiotic.
ETA: And also that the 'Truth Movement' at large are. All for tonight. Peace all.

 

[gumboot]

Huh? I had meant Cheney and/or Bush, are they not the top of the shoot-down food chain? These allegations are ultimately serious enough anyway, but shouldn't be too shocking by now.

My apologies, I thought you were saying the people who didn't pass the shoot down order to the pilots might have done so to ensure they didn't shoot down any hijacked airliners. It was (obviously) Colonel Marr and Major Nasypany who made the decision not to give the NORAD pilots an open slate to shoot whatever they felt like.

You admit it was passed on after 10:00, which is when Bush passed it to Cheney (most documented time: 10:18). Rummy got it at 10:30, it was passed to NEADS at 10:31. After that I'm sure everyone passed it on except, as far as I've seen, to the first five fighter pilots.

One of the things to bear in mind is that there were two parallel lines of action happening that day. While NORAD were carrying out air defense, the USSS had scrambled fighters from Andrews Air Force Base. The USSS have the authority to commandeer military units for the defense of critical government personnel and buildings. The aircraft at Andrews were unarmed initially, however the USSS authorised them to use force, and the first of them were airborne by about 10:15. These were joined by armed fighters from the same squadron at 10:45, in combination with the NORAD fighters that established a cap over Washington DC at about 10:15.

The pilots of the unarmed aircraft had decided to ram their fighters into any hijacked airliners, and hope to eject at the last moment.

The story of the 121st Fighter Squadron's seldom-known involvement in air defense on 9/11 is covered in an excellent article here.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

As for "judgment based on knowledge," consider that the Otis pilots, who had a shot perhaps at Flight 175, were never told it existed, or that Flight 11 had crashed into anything, until they saw smoke coming from both towers.

NORAD weren't told about UA175 until 0903 full stop, and the Otis fighters didn't arrive off Long Island until 0905, so they had no chance at even intercepting UA175. And even if they had, they could have done nothing except watch it slam into WTC2.

The Langley fighters saw smoke from the Pentagon and were THEN still not told it was a plane, and never informed of Flight 93 coming in.

Um, that's not true. The Langley F-16's were directed towards Washington DC to intercept AA77 at 0936. NORAD didn't learn about UA93 until after it had crashed.

They were gunning for the phantom 11 we hear, until the Pentagon attack was done.

The "phantom" AA11 was why they were put into the air, but it wasn't what they were heading for at 0937 when AA77 hit the Pentagon. They didn't know they were going after AA77, of course, because no one knew it was AA77 they were chasing. But they knew they were chasing an airliner that was over Washington DC.

Radar problems.
Communications problems.
Capping months of intel negligence.
And then the New American Century.

I'm not sure what the above was in reference to.

I blame no one in particular, certainly not the honorable folks who did their best with what they had, for how things happened.
Nonetheless, it happened, and this overall pattern still seems rather disturbing to me.

The United States was asleep, just like the rest of western civilisation. What is disturbing isn't that we were caught napping, it's that we are caught napping after every attack because we just keep going back to sleep again.

-Gumboot

 

[beachnut]

You really think they'd give me a Pulitzer for proving a crime that would undermine the USG, destabilize the economy, spread chaos and doubt, etc.? What band of anarchist radicals do you think sit on these boards?

Ask President Nixon. Yes, get some facts and evidence, which you are not using, and you get the Prize. But you have to use facts and evidence, so far you have a fictional account, and if you keep using PNAC junk, you have nothing.

 

[beachnut]

I appreciate that, and like to think I too would've done the right thing with or without orders in the same situation. Perhaps people who think like you is why the pilots were essentially kept away from intercept proximity. Or just chance, who knows for sure...

What a bunch of crap. You keep going fact less without warning. No one was kept from targets. This is why no truther will ever get a Pulitzer Prize.

This is what I expect of a truther, they take each new idea and turn it into woo. Nice job, you are showing your truthy side.

 

[Caustic Logic]

NORAD weren't told about UA175 until 0903 full stop, and the Otis fighters didn't arrive off Long Island until 0905, so they had no chance at even intercepting UA175. And even if they had, they could have done nothing except watch it slam into WTC2.

These fighters were armed and ready, correct? So why were they never informed Flight 11 had crashed into the effin WTC? You'd think they'd want operational awareness of the situation they were dealing with. A synchronized suicide attack and the armed pilots aren't told about it until it's both obvious and over. This could just be confusion, we can't say reason for sure, but it's worth noting I think.

Um, that's not true. The Langley F-16's were directed towards Washington DC to intercept AA77 at 0936. NORAD didn't learn about UA93 until after it had crashed.

Again, some of my sources are outdated. I was going off "Among the Heores" By Jere Longman and the 9/11 Commissio. Here's what I wrote:

"they just happened to pass the Pentagon and saw the smoke billowing from it. Lou said “holy smoke, that’s why we’re here.” As Jere Longman explains it:

”The lead pilot was asked on his radio to verify whether the Pentagon was burning…. “That’s affirmative,” Honey replied.” But not having been informed of a plane in the area, the pilots presumed it was a truck bomb or something of that nature.” [6]

After confirming the attack there was complete, they were then sent to investigate. The 9/11 Commission noted that Honey told them “you couldn’t see any planes, and no one told us anything.” The Commission concluded “the pilots knew their mission was to divert aircraft, but did not know that the threat came from hijacked airliners.” [7]

The "phantom" AA11 was why they were put into the air, but it wasn't what they were heading for at 0937 when AA77 hit the Pentagon. They didn't know they were going after AA77, of course, because no one knew it was AA77 they were chasing. But they knew they were chasing an airliner that was over Washington DC.

I suppose this is in the NORAD tapes, and clearly not the anticipated phantom over DC, correct?

The United States was asleep, just like the rest of western civilisation. What is disturbing isn't that we were caught napping, it's that we are caught napping after every attack because we just keep going back to sleep again.

-Gumboot

And that this time the result was 9/11, which utterly transformed the US along the lines advocated by many inside the US. You sure they weren't hitting the snooze bar on purpose?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ask President Nixon. Yes, get some facts and evidence, which you are not using, and you get the Prize. But you have to use facts and evidence, so far you have a fictional account, and if you keep using PNAC junk, you have nothing.

That's a fair point of course, but the Nixon case is an anomaly. My own hunch is he was brought down from within by a powerful rival faction. It threstened the existing order, but Carter and Reagan helped revive the office. This would go much deeper. Do you realize the difference of type and scale between Watergate and a 9/11 inside job? It's like Kennedy assassination, Watergate, and Pearl Harbor combined and amplified.

BIG stuff.

And as for PNAC, I'll need to be reminded why they are irrelevant here. They proposed a radical reorganization of the DoD, readiness to fight more wars, manage the 'Pax Americana,' create a Space Force, go to war in Iraq, etc... They themselves noted a 'new Pearl Harbor' might be needed to get it done quick, they came to power, a 'new Pearl Harbor happened, they got their process rolling and most of their prime goals were achieved. So what, they never had operational covert teams, they've split up now, whatever... the PNAC was a collection of minds, and some of the more connected minds had control of the US defense system as their event threatened and somehow slipped through.

The only thing about the PNAC angle that makes me doubt it is how overly-obvious the whole deal was.

 

[Caustic Logic]

What a bunch of crap. You keep going fact less without warning. No one was kept from targets. This is why no truther will ever get a Pulitzer Prize.

This is what I expect of a truther, they take each new idea and turn it into woo. Nice job, you are showing your truthy side.

None were at their targets in time to act, correct? Is this not the whole reason the lack of shoot-down auth is not a problem? Therefore they were kept away from their targets, if only by sheer circumstance. That's all I can say for sure.

 

[beachnut]

That's a fair point of course, but the Nixon case is an anomaly. My own hunch is he was brought down from within by a powerful rival faction. It threstened the existing order, but Carter and Reagan helped revive the office. This would go much deeper. Do you realize the difference of type and scale between Watergate and a 9/11 inside job? It's like Kennedy assassination, Watergate, and Pearl Harbor combined and amplified.

BIG stuff.

And as for PNAC, I'll need to be reminded why they are irrelevant here. They proposed a radical reorganization of the DoD, readiness to fight more wars, manage the 'Pax Americana,' create a Space Force, go to war in Iraq, etc... They themselves noted a 'new Pearl Harbor' might be needed to get it done quick, they came to power, a 'new Pearl Harbor happened, they got their process rolling and most of their prime goals were achieved. So what, they never had operational covert teams, they've split up now, whatever... the PNAC was a collection of minds, and some of the more connected minds had control of the US defense system as their event threatened and somehow slipped through.

The only thing about the PNAC angle that makes me doubt it is how overly-obvious the whole deal was.

You should read PNAC before you post foolish interpretations.

You need to go to Dallas and see how you could of hit the car with a rock from the window, easy shot.

I have, in one post, discovered a CT hound, you see CT, you see them every where. The eleventh sense has been discovered and it the truther affliction. Have a happy paranoid day.

If you web site is suppose to be funny, then it works. Funny stuff, not related to reality, but funny just the same.

 

[beachnut]

None were at their targets in time to act, correct? Is this not the whole reason the lack of shoot-down auth is not a problem? Therefore they were kept away from their targets, if only by sheer circumstance. That's all I can say for sure.

Oops, we got the last one, I have to say the passengers on flight 93 used their heads and stopped the attack from 93. What, no shoot down order, how did the passengers do it? Unlike truther and people like you who can not figure out things, they used their heads to figure out 9/11, and they were right, and time constrained. Now you have had 6 years and you have perverted the facts and made up stories and missed what the passengers on 9/11 figured in minutes, you have wasted years, they got it right! You got it Wrong!.

Why? Why are you and the 9/11 truth movement unable to figure out 9/11? You woiuld not even qualify as a passenger on flight 93. I guess there are good teams of people and not so good; 9/11 truth is a bad team.

So, you make up the kept away from their targets because of zero facts and evidence; you made it up, thinking you have done a good job, but have no real logical evidence supporting your ideas.
Flight 93, displayed ideals of our country, volunteers took action against the attack with no orders. What do you know, free will and smart guys; What the passengers of 93 had, the 9/11 truth movement and you lack.

Now you have to figure out how the "I don't know who they are" forgot to keep the passengers from taking action against the terrorists.

 

[bynmdsue]

Pearl Harbor.

Used twice in the PNAC Docu in question:

1."Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor".

2."Absent a rigorous program of experimentation to investigate the nature of the revolution in military affairs as it applies to war at sea, the Navy might face a future Pearl Harbor – as unprepared for war in the post-carrier era as it was unprepared for war at the dawn of the carrier age".

It's this second use that's more important to me,but to understand it requires a knowledge of military history that I find lacking amongst Teh Twoof

 

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum bynmdsue (though you registered 5 months ago).

TAM

 

[bynmdsue]

5 posts in 5 months.

I'm on fire.

 

[gumboot]

These fighters were armed and ready, correct? So why were they never informed Flight 11 had crashed into the effin WTC? You'd think they'd want operational awareness of the situation they were dealing with. A synchronized suicide attack and the armed pilots aren't told about it until it's both obvious and over. This could just be confusion, we can't say reason for sure, but it's worth noting I think.

No one knew there was a synchronised suicide attack until after UA175 hit the WTC. The first impact was initially assumed to be an accident, and it wasn't connected to AA11 for quite some time. Your assertion they were "never told" isn't true either. The pilots did learn what was going on, just not immediately.

This transcript includes some comments from the fighter pilots out of Otis:

03:57:59 REPORTER (CONTINUED)
I don't believe this. The second Tower has exploded from about 20 stories below in a gargantuan explosion.

03:58:07 REPORTER (CONTINUED)
So this looks like it is some sort of a concerted effort to attack the World Trade Center that is under way.

03:58:14 CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS
(VO) Jet fighters are still 60 miles away. It is just 16 minutes since the attacks began.

03:58:20 LT COLONEL "DUFF", PILOT, AIR NATIONAL GUARD
Called for bogey up again trying to get some information. And at that point they said the second aircraft just hit the World Trade Center. That was news to me. I thought we were still chasing American 11.

03:58:29 MAJOR "NASTY", PILOT AIR NATIONAL GUARD
There was smoke from fire, blowing southeast, towards New Jersey.

03:58:35 LT COLONEL "DUFF", PILOT, AIR NATIONAL GUARD
I had Had my head down basically looking at the radar scope, and we're about 60 miles out, and I could see the smoke from the towers. So at that point, obviously, everything changed.

So they learned what was going on before they reached NYC. Also of note in the same transcript is that the pilots from Otis were told they were going after a hijacking before they took off.

Again, some of my sources are outdated. I was going off "Among the Heores" By Jere Longman and the 9/11 Commissio. Here's what I wrote:

"they just happened to pass the Pentagon and saw the smoke billowing from it. Lou said “holy smoke, that’s why we’re here.” As Jere Longman explains it:

”The lead pilot was asked on his radio to verify whether the Pentagon was burning…. “That’s affirmative,” Honey replied.” But not having been informed of a plane in the area, the pilots presumed it was a truck bomb or something of that nature.” [6]

After confirming the attack there was complete, they were then sent to investigate. The 9/11 Commission noted that Honey told them “you couldn’t see any planes, and no one told us anything.” The Commission concluded “the pilots knew their mission was to divert aircraft, but did not know that the threat came from hijacked airliners.” [7]

The Langley pilots knew about the WTC before they were scrambled. Major Eckmann, the lead pilot, was an airline pilot for Northwest Airlines as his "day job", and he distinctly remembers the talk about the WTC hit because, like any pilot, he knew that couldn't happen accidentally.

It's important to remember that the initial reports from the Pentagon were about a truck bomb or helicopter crash, not an airline crash. NEADS had CNN on their screens and would have been feeding this news to the pilots, including word of a truck bomb at the Pentagon. In hindsight perhaps they should have put two and two together - two airliners hijacked crash, third wayward aircraft near White House, then explosion at the Pentagon...

I suppose this is in the NORAD tapes, and clearly not the anticipated phantom over DC, correct?

It's important to remember that in most cases NORAD didn't know what the flight numbers were of the contacts they were chasing. They had eleven hijacking reports in the first 90 minutes. It's not really important if they thought they were chasing AA77 or AA11 or just an unknown contact. The point is they knew they were chasing down a low level high speed aircraft headed towards the White House.

And that this time the result was 9/11, which utterly transformed the US along the lines advocated by many inside the US. You sure they weren't hitting the snooze bar on purpose?

You can't hit the snooze bar on purpose, and the entire western world was in snooze mode, not just the USA. It was the American people that wanted to be asleep. They wanted free movement across borders, they wanted hassle free air travel, they wanted to go about their lives without being bothered, they wanted the law enforcement agencies spending their efforts stopping murders and the drug trade. They didn't care about terrorists.

I think your assertion that the US has been transformed along the lines "many" inside the US advocate is also way off base. The measures put in place 9/11 are a back-lash over reaction to being caught defenseless, that's all. Things will settle down again. And then the threat will be forgotten and things will relax even more, and you'll let your guard down again, and you'll get hit again. And then that government will overreact and implement measures to protect the country, which in turn will be rejected by the population, and again we'll all go back to sleep... round and round we go.

-Gumboot