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Debate! What debate?

PhantomWolf:

The iron spheres did not show high sulphur as far as I know, they were relatively pure iron...

It's the Zn/Fe ratio that is interesting.

Frank I would not expect them to, when I did the sulfate tests, I got iron oxide, and So2 if the iron oxide dropped into aluminum it would produce the particles but you would also have an association with Aluminum oxide.
Now a chemical reaction with Iron oxide and carbon black would give you pure Iron and the temperature would be hot enough to form the spheres from out gassing just as in a blast furnace.
IT is the same process that refines iron ore, there was plenty of carbon black in the diesel smoke, and in the paper, and other elements burning in the buildings.
The question is where would all the iron oxide come from.
To form the spheres though the refinement action of carbon on iron oxide that is the basis of the entire iron industry:cool: ?

http://www.cheresources.com/ironfires.shtml

Here is something else that is interesting though I do not know if it relates to the discussion at this point it is only a point of interest.

http://www.civilandmarine.com/pages.en/products/ggbs/ggbsthaumasite.html
 
I am anxiously awaiting the outcome related to 9/11 CTs, as this subforum is about 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

If this conversation about Iron Particles and Zinc Particles is not going to lead us to either (a) refuting a 9/11 CT, or (b) supporting a 9/11 CT, than why is it continuing?

If it is just general science discussion, perhaps that area of the JREF forum is more appropriate.

Don't get me wrong, if this in any way supports or refutes any aspect of the official story, or an alternative theory, than I want to hear it, but can we get to it, or can someone, in clear non chemistrt/engineering/physics speak please inform me the end point we are trying to reach here.

Thanks

TAM:)
 
Got estimate, with link(s)? I find it very hard to believe that energy lost to "sonic shedding" would not be neglible. Then again, I don't know this for a fact. I've always assumed that wave phenomena would mostly end up transformed into heat energy.



Well, some details and links would be nice....




Shall we assume that you intend to post references to what you found regarding dynamic impacts on I-beams and hollow box columns?




No, have not. I've mostly dropped out of physorg back in Jan.




Cool. BTW, a friend of the family is a brilliant electrical engineer, who has a worldwide business detecting fractures in large metal structures using phonons. We've briefly chatted about the WTC collapse, and he suggested that pre-existing fractures may have played a large part in the collapse.

Then again, when all you have is a hammer....

N.B.: When he was a young college student, he helped install a bathtub in our house, which neither buckled nor fractured, even after 30 years!


I will get you the links you requested as soon as possible, some of them actually come from research in the oil industry on how to make tankers and oil platforms more resistant to impact accidents.
An engineer friend of mine who is retired not from an engineering firm loaned me a lot of the papers I have been reading.
As with the CE paper you have to purchase most of them and I had limited resources so I borrowed instead of bought.
 
I am anxiously awaiting the outcome related to 9/11 CTs, as this subforum is about 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

If this conversation about Iron Particles and Zinc Particles is not going to lead us to either (a) refuting a 9/11 CT, or (b) supporting a 9/11 CT, than why is it continuing?

If it is just general science discussion, perhaps that area of the JREF forum is more appropriate.

Don't get me wrong, if this in any way supports or refutes any aspect of the official story, or an alternative theory, than I want to hear it, but can we get to it, or can someone, in clear non chemistrt/engineering/physics speak please inform me the end point we are trying to reach here.

Thanks

TAM:)

If from a natural condition the iron spheres were formed the temperatures in the buildings were hellish do to an unobserved effect of the construction.
IN other words there was a condition in the buildings that caused extreme heat, and destroyed them.
The truth is always the best debunking evidence against a truth movement! Gravy will tell you that.
I feel that Jerfers have in many ways been using Nist as a cane for support, but science should be the foundation of the Jerfers no matter where it leads!
 
I agree with DW. Dr. Greening may be a crackerjack materials scientist, and he may have valid critiques about the tone of discussion in this section of JREF. But his manner of communicating those critiques is contemptible.

I believe that dogs are stupid animals. To prove my point (scientifically), whenever my neighbor is away I throw rocks at the two dogs in his backyard. I poke them with a long stick. I laugh at them and call them stupid. All they can do is bark. You should see those stupid dogs bark! Woohoo, what fun!

That's my proof that dogs are stupid using the Greening method.

The tone in this section of the forum is due to the fact that these posts are not being generated by automated scripts, or robots sitting at keyboards, or even Vulcans. They're being typed by human beings, human beings who:

1. Can become frustrated when tremendous expended effort begins to feel pointless; and

2. Have a certain emotional reaction to being accused of murder or complicity in murder.

It is extraordinarily difficult for even the most patient man to debate, with perfect manners, another man who uses grossly dishonest tactics. A man or in this case, a group, who constantly changes subjects when cornered, who starts hit-and-run threads of discussion with what I call "drive-by" accusations, accusing but refusing to stand by said accusations after they've been answered, their response to simply show up in another thread and fire out another empty accusation to start the process over. These people return endlessly to simple issues of fact that have long since been debunked, again and again, years ago. It's a form of purposeful obtuseness that makes the effort of debate feel ineffective and often maddening.

Secondly, it is extraordinarily difficult for even the most charitable, kind, well-balanced human being to discuss an issue in cold, generous, emotionless tones when the subject of discussion is a vicious, completely unfounded accusation by the other party.

So, yes, after about the 100th Truther came by using the word "shill" and saying controlled demolition is "laughably obvious" (implying that anyone who claims not to see it is "in on it"), the forums grew quite contentious and even snide in tone. New "Truthers" were often not given the benefit of the doubt, and have often been treated unfairly based on the behavior of other members of their group.

That Greening has somehow convinced himself that this tone is the dragon that needs slain, as opposed to the unspeakably ugly cause of the tone, is impossible for me to understand. If you see good people acting badly, you should take a moment to understand what made them act that way.

He of all people should know.

Even a straight post titled, "The Truthers are Wrong, but Your Tone is Also Wrong," could have been a valuable wake-up call. Instead, he's apparently found the debunkers behavior so distasteful that he's essentially joined the Truthers, adopting their tone and tactics, and in some ways nullifying his own work. He's doing exactly what they do: amplifying minor discrepancies in order to muddy the waters and suggest that all investigation to date has been pointless and flawed.

In the end it just makes debunking the ridiculous conspiracy theory that much more difficult and makes it that much harder for someone new to the subject looking for the truth to find it.

It's like seeing a police officer insult someone, and being so offended that you decide to devote your life to helping the criminals instead.
 
The tone in this section of the forum is due to the fact that these posts are not being generated by automated scripts, or robots sitting at keyboards, or even Vulcans. They're being typed by human beings, human beings who:

1. Can become frustrated when tremendous expended effort begins to feel pointless; and

2. Have a certain emotional reaction to being accused of murder or complicity in murder.

It is extraordinarily difficult for even the most patient man to debate, with perfect manners, another man who uses grossly dishonest tactics. A man or in this case, a group, who constantly changes subjects when cornered, who starts hit-and-run threads of discussion with what I call "drive-by" accusations, accusing but refusing to stand by said accusations after they've been answered, their response to simply show up in another thread and fire out another empty accusation to start the process over. These people return endlessly to simple issues of fact that have long since been debunked, again and again, years ago. It's a form of purposeful obtuseness that makes the effort of debate feel ineffective and often maddening.

Secondly, it is extraordinarily difficult for even the most charitable, kind, well-balanced human being to discuss an issue in cold, generous, emotionless tones when the subject of discussion is a vicious, completely unfounded accusation by the other party.

So, yes, after about the 100th Truther came by using the word "shill" and saying controlled demolition is "laughably obvious" (implying that anyone who claims not to see it is "in on it"), the forums grew quite contentious and even snide in tone. New "Truthers" were often not given the benefit of the doubt, and have often been treated unfairly based on the behavior of other members of their group.

That Greening has somehow convinced himself that this tone is the dragon that needs slain, as opposed to the unspeakably ugly cause of the tone, is impossible for me to understand. If you see good people acting badly, you should take a moment to understand what made them act that way.

He of all people should know.

Even a straight post titled, "The Truthers are Wrong, but Your Tone is Also Wrong," could have been a valuable wake-up call. Instead, he's apparently found the debunkers behavior so distasteful that he's essentially joined the Truthers, adopting their tone and tactics, and in some ways nullifying his own work. He's doing exactly what they do: amplifying minor discrepancies in order to muddy the waters and suggest that all investigation to date has been pointless and flawed.

In the end it just makes debunking the ridiculous conspiracy theory that much more difficult and makes it that much harder for someone new to the subject looking for the truth to find it.

It's like seeing a police officer insult someone, and being so offended that you decide to devote your life to helping the criminals instead.


Says it much better than I can at this point....Thank you David.

TAM:)
 
Because they are expected to form in intense fires where iron can be molten, like when aluminum burns or in a jet burner effect both mostly discounted by NIST.
Read the date of the papers, and you will see that most were written during the time the earliest theory's hold sway.
The papers I've read date from 2002-2006. My question was about what steel components of the building and its contents would be likely to melt or vaporize. It seems logical that unprotected steel components of low mass would succumb before structural steel. The papers do not state or imply that structural steel melted or vaporized. Neither do the engineers who studied the steel.
 
The tone in this section of the forum is due to the fact that these posts are not being generated by automated scripts, or robots sitting at keyboards, or even Vulcans. They're being typed by human beings, human beings who:

1. Can become frustrated when tremendous expended effort begins to feel pointless; and

2. Have a certain emotional reaction to being accused of murder or complicity in murder.

It is extraordinarily difficult for even the most patient man to debate, with perfect manners, another man who uses grossly dishonest tactics. A man or in this case, a group, who constantly changes subjects when cornered, who starts hit-and-run threads of discussion with what I call "drive-by" accusations, accusing but refusing to stand by said accusations after they've been answered, their response to simply show up in another thread and fire out another empty accusation to start the process over. These people return endlessly to simple issues of fact that have long since been debunked, again and again, years ago. It's a form of purposeful obtuseness that makes the effort of debate feel ineffective and often maddening.

Secondly, it is extraordinarily difficult for even the most charitable, kind, well-balanced human being to discuss an issue in cold, generous, emotionless tones when the subject of discussion is a vicious, completely unfounded accusation by the other party.

So, yes, after about the 100th Truther came by using the word "shill" and saying controlled demolition is "laughably obvious" (implying that anyone who claims not to see it is "in on it"), the forums grew quite contentious and even snide in tone. New "Truthers" were often not given the benefit of the doubt, and have often been treated unfairly based on the behavior of other members of their group.

That Greening has somehow convinced himself that this tone is the dragon that needs slain, as opposed to the unspeakably ugly cause of the tone, is impossible for me to understand. If you see good people acting badly, you should take a moment to understand what made them act that way.

He of all people should know.

Even a straight post titled, "The Truthers are Wrong, but Your Tone is Also Wrong," could have been a valuable wake-up call. Instead, he's apparently found the debunkers behavior so distasteful that he's essentially joined the Truthers, adopting their tone and tactics, and in some ways nullifying his own work. He's doing exactly what they do: amplifying minor discrepancies in order to muddy the waters and suggest that all investigation to date has been pointless and flawed.

In the end it just makes debunking the ridiculous conspiracy theory that much more difficult and makes it that much harder for someone new to the subject looking for the truth to find it.

It's like seeing a police officer insult someone, and being so offended that you decide to devote your life to helping the criminals instead.

Yes but sometimes a quick kick in the pants can get someones attention better than a polite whisper.
I know that when my cousin wreaked his car, I did not try to tell him the gas tank was on fire I just grabbed him and pitched him down the in the ditch.
Dr. Greening has gotten very frustrated from the Truthers and the Debunkers going at it with him in the middle.
I know the feeling, I try to be objective myself as much as I can, Dr. Greening has made a promise to be totally objective, and only use the information that Science provides.
For Dr. Greening asking him to give up Science, or to stop investigating abnormalities is like asking him to give up breathing. He just can not do it and live, and that is what makes him such a good and honest man, and a valuable asset to understanding what happened on 9/11/2001.
 
Greening could have come here and started a thread about the origins of the iron sphericals and we'd (well, those of you w/ scientific understanding to do so, I'd merely lurk and learn) have had an interesting discussion. Instead, he comes right out with name calling and generally acting like a jackass. Way to spark a discussion Frank!
 
Yes but sometimes a quick kick in the pants can get someones attention better than a polite whisper.
I know that when my cousin wreaked his car, I did not try to tell him the gas tank was on fire I just grabbed him and pitched him down the in the ditch.
Dr. Greening has gotten very frustrated from the Truthers and the Debunkers going at it with him in the middle.
I know the feeling, I try to be objective myself as much as I can, Dr. Greening has made a promise to be totally objective, and only use the information that Science provides.
For Dr. Greening asking him to give up Science, or to stop investigating abnormalities is like asking him to give up breathing. He just can not do it and live, and that is what makes him such a good and honest man, and a valuable asset to understanding what happened on 9/11/2001.

Agreed. As a physician, while not a scientist in the pure sense, I can relate to needing to investigate. When I perform a series of tests to try and narrow down a problem for a patient, I do not give up if they are negative...I move on to other tests, I re-question the patient.

That said, it does have to do with both the initial approach, and then the continued attitude displayed after the truth of who he was (Apollo/Dr. Greening), was admitted.

I guess there is a certain amount of professionalism that is expected of a scientist, especially one who has some degree of fame/notariety in the given field. We are all human, and of course, patience can wear thin, but Apollo20 seems to have come in with the shields up, guns a blazing, so to speak.

While it would have been nice for Dr. Greening to have entered the forum with a polite hello, an introduction, and then perhaps an explanation of his frustrations with NIST, I think the calling of JREFers as NISTIANS, and the antagonism, have been seen as on the opposite side of that spectrum.

As well, this discussion is above the understanding, in a technical sense, of a number of posters, including to a degree, myself. This is frustrating, as we try to follow the discussion. However, noone who posts is required to break anything down for any of us...it just would be nice.

TAM:)
 
The papers I've read date from 2002-2006. My question was about what steel components of the building and its contents would be likely to melt or vaporize. It seems logical that unprotected steel components of low mass would succumb before structural steel. The papers do not state or imply that structural steel melted or vaporized. Neither do the engineers who studied the steel.

You mean like door knobs, wall studs, furniture, galvanized heating ducts, and galvanized floor pans under concrete where the upper surface is exposed to sulfates, from the concrete in an oxygen free environment?

Dr. Greening has never Stated that he believed the spiracles were formed from Structural steel, but if hot enough the steel could form them just by off gassing carbon monoxide but structural steel does not account for the zinc.
 
Yes but sometimes a quick kick in the pants can get someones attention better than a polite whisper.
I know that when my cousin wreaked his car, I did not try to tell him the gas tank was on fire I just grabbed him and pitched him down the in the ditch.
Dr. Greening has gotten very frustrated from the Truthers and the Debunkers going at it with him in the middle.
I know the feeling, I try to be objective myself as much as I can, Dr. Greening has made a promise to be totally objective, and only use the information that Science provides.
For Dr. Greening asking him to give up Science, or to stop investigating abnormalities is like asking him to give up breathing. He just can not do it and live, and that is what makes him such a good and honest man, and a valuable asset to understanding what happened on 9/11/2001.

I can empathize with Dr. Greening's frustration, and agree with the need for a kick in the pants. There is all too much "certainty" on both sides of the argument about the most complex disaster in modern architectural history.

Dr. Greening is widely respected for his analysis of the events of 9/11. He could have relied on that prestige to earn deferential attention to his criticisms. He shouldn't feel it necessary to resort to mean-spirited tactics to prove his point. "Hi, I'm Frank Greening, here are some of my objections regarding the tone on this board..." would have been sufficient, and far more effective in my opinion.
 
A couple of quick questions for Chainsaw or someone else with more knowledge. How much of the iron spheres would come from the plane itself? Would a portion of the iron spheres be generated from the initial impact and fireball?
 
A couple of quick questions for Chainsaw or someone else with more knowledge. How much of the iron spheres would come from the plane itself? Would a portion of the iron spheres be generated from the initial impact and fireball?

I do not believe so, the fire ball was too short lived, and the steel would have burned when heated, leaving iron Oxide not iron and zinc, although the impact would have caused inclusion of iron, below the oxide layer in aluminum.
Such inclusion of iron below the oxide layer into pure aluminum will make flowing aluminum glow yellow by changing its conductive abilities To rapidly cool.
Also the data shows that the phenomena was too long lived for that I believe, Dr. Greening could probably elaborate more.
I must also elaborate that I am not a Scientist, I have just done the experiments that I could and observed the consequences of those, as faithfully as I could.
To test what impact and fire could do to aluminum I used a 12 Gage shot gun and steel water fowl shot while heating an aluminum plate with kerosene.
Not only did the Aluminum flow but some of the Iron particles partially burned and while flowing reacted in a thermite reaction. It only occurred once though in 30 tries.
As I said I am not a scientist, just a guy with a chainsaw on a farm in Kentucky crazy enough to try anything once and If I live might just try it again.
 
To answer a few questions:

I believe the iron spherules in the WTC dust show that molten iron was formed in the twin towers prior to their collapse. However, this does NOT make me jump to the conclusion that thermite/thermate was pre-planted in these buildings. In fact, I have plenty of reasons to discount the use of thermite/thermate in the destruction of WTC 1 & 2. However, I would say that the presence of molten iron in the WTC is inconsistent with the NIST Report’s conclusion that temperatures in the towers during 9/11 were well below the melting point of iron or steel.

But let me add that when I research the collapse of the twin towers I am NOT interested in proving or disproving anything NIST has concluded about the events of 9/11. In fact, most of my recent research is on topics NOT covered by the NIST Report. Nevertheless, I will say that I greatly value and use NIST’s data on the design and construction of the towers, the properties of steel and concrete, the results of the fire simulations, etc. The NIST Report is very good in this respect, but it is sadly lacking in some contentious areas. Thus, when it comes to the pulverization of the concrete, the ejection of debris, the chemical analysis of WTC dust, etc, the NIST Report is of little or no use.

Of course, there are those who would say that post-collapse initiation issues were of no interest to NIST but I would argue that this is simply not true! A good example would be the metallurgical examination of recovered steel samples. NIST concludes that the samples were in the debris pile at the WTC site when the corrosion products developed. Thus NIST asserts WITHOUT PROOF that the observed degradation of the WTC steel occurred AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE BUILDING. Interestingly, the FEMA Report is more equivocal on this topic. Thus in Appendix C of the FEMA Report we read in reference to the infamous sulfidation of the steel: “It is possible that the corrosion is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure.”

I find it quite amazing that such an important issue remains unresolved to this day. But I guess it’s no more amazing than the fact that the cause of the collapse of WTC 7 also remains unresolved!
 
You mean like door knobs, wall studs, furniture, galvanized heating ducts, and galvanized floor pans under concrete where the upper surface is exposed to sulfates, from the concrete in an oxygen free environment?
Yes, although I hadn't thought about the sulfates.

Dr. Greening has never Stated that he believed the spiracles were formed from Structural steel, but if hot enough the steel could form them just by off gassing carbon monoxide but structural steel does not account for the zinc.
True, he didn't state that, but if that's not what he means then what's he making a fuss about? If these particles are in fact an expected result of such a fire, to me the next question is "Okay, what's their most likely origin?" Perhaps that question has been addressed in combustion studies. If not, perhaps an expert like Thomas Eagar could provide informed speculation. Whatever the case, it seems logical to me to seek the counsel of people to whom the presence of the particles is not surprising, before looking for more esoteric explanations.
 
To answer a few questions:

I believe the iron spherules in the WTC dust show that molten iron was formed in the twin towers prior to their collapse. However, this does NOT make me jump to the conclusion that thermite/thermate was pre-planted in these buildings. In fact, I have plenty of reasons to discount the use of thermite/thermate in the destruction of WTC 1 & 2. However, I would say that the presence of molten iron in the WTC is inconsistent with the NIST Report’s conclusion that temperatures in the towers during 9/11 were well below the melting point of iron or steel.

But let me add that when I research the collapse of the twin towers I am NOT interested in proving or disproving anything NIST has concluded about the events of 9/11. In fact, most of my recent research is on topics NOT covered by the NIST Report. Nevertheless, I will say that I greatly value and use NIST’s data on the design and construction of the towers, the properties of steel and concrete, the results of the fire simulations, etc. The NIST Report is very good in this respect, but it is sadly lacking in some contentious areas. Thus, when it comes to the pulverization of the concrete, the ejection of debris, the chemical analysis of WTC dust, etc, the NIST Report is of little or no use.

Of course, there are those who would say that post-collapse initiation issues were of no interest to NIST but I would argue that this is simply not true! A good example would be the metallurgical examination of recovered steel samples. NIST concludes that the samples were in the debris pile at the WTC site when the corrosion products developed. Thus NIST asserts WITHOUT PROOF that the observed degradation of the WTC steel occurred AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE BUILDING. Interestingly, the FEMA Report is more equivocal on this topic. Thus in Appendix C of the FEMA Report we read in reference to the infamous sulfidation of the steel: “It is possible that the corrosion is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure.”

I find it quite amazing that such an important issue remains unresolved to this day. But I guess it’s no more amazing than the fact that the cause of the collapse of WTC 7 also remains unresolved!

I have to agree with you Frank, it was a conversation, with Dr. Steven E. Jones, about building 7 that got me into this, I could not believe he actually sprayed aluminum in a furnace with high pressure water, looking for a hydrogen reaction, that has got to be the dumbest experiment that I have ever heard.

I knew from growing up in Hawesville, KY around the Aluminum industry that first the oxide layer has to be compromised to allow the hydrogen reaction to take place.
After seeing the hydrogen reaction when I was a boy, when a diesel Semi ran off the road and a multi ton ingot slipped and busted the oxide layer in the rain. I kind of knew something about what Dr. Jones was telling me did not match the physical laws of the known universe.

That instance happened in front of the school buss, I was standing up on the buss because there was no seat, and I got an extremely good view of that accident as well as a bruised arm.
We were right behind the Semi.
I did not get into this to disprove Dr. Jones, or to prove right or wrong, and I admit that I now have some bias but it is only because of the god like nature, the way Dr. Jones was treated by many in the movement, at the time.

People actually emailed, wrote, and even called me saying that I should die for disagreeing with Dr. Jones after the Maui article came out.
I thought that Science was about the truth not appointing Scientist as gods merely because they were scientist.
I wish that some one somewhere could settle this issue especially building 7 once and for all, but I do not really see it as a possibility in my life time.
 
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Gravy:

Please read my last post: "However, I would say that the presence of molten iron in the WTC is inconsistent with the NIST Report’s conclusion that temperatures in the towers during 9/11 were well below the melting point of iron or steel."

Please explain why you now have no trouble with molten iron in the WTC because some "experts" say molten iron is to be "expected" in building fires; meanwhile NIST cannot generate temperatures within 400 deg C of the melting point of iron!

Which "experts" do you prefer to believe Gravy?
 
Gravy:

Please read my last post: "However, I would say that the presence of molten iron in the WTC is inconsistent with the NIST Report’s conclusion that temperatures in the towers during 9/11 were well below the melting point of iron or steel."

Please explain why you now have no trouble with molten iron in the WTC because some "experts" say molten iron is to be "expected" in building fires; meanwhile NIST cannot generate temperatures within 400 deg C of the melting point of iron!

Which "experts" do you prefer to believe Gravy?

Were NIST commenting on temperatures before and at the time of collapse?

Was the molten metal produced at or before the collapse of the towers?

Did NIST comment on the temperatures of the underground fires in the pile?

Could molten metal be produced by concentrated heat sources within the pile?
 

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