Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Debate! What debate?
- Thread starter Apollo20
- Start date
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Drat! Beat me to it.
I had my reply written (typed this over it), stating the same thing.... but I forgot I had eggs boiling in the kitchen and went to take care of 'em....
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Back on topic (well the topic of the last page, at any rate).
Who's our favorite prankster who put a fake article on Wikipedia and then bragged about it?
Could our boy be up to his old tricks. He's certainly read enough Greening to know where to find the material. But someone with a better knowledge of science than my own will have to tell me if Ace could've trumped up the "script".
Who's our favorite prankster who put a fake article on Wikipedia and then bragged about it?
Could our boy be up to his old tricks. He's certainly read enough Greening to know where to find the material. But someone with a better knowledge of science than my own will have to tell me if Ace could've trumped up the "script".
truthseeker10
Student
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I've enjoyed reading the posts here since I 1st arrived yesterday. I am truely enlightened by the discussions here.
One problem most Scientist over analyze almost everything. not saying that toward the dicussions about 9/11. but some of the statements I made here were way over analyzed. Don't forget if you are a Scientist it's ok to over analyze 9/11 because that subject needs it.
But you are not psychologists it's not your job to analyze what you think someone means when they say a certain thing. I said yesterday that I thought the Official Story was BS. That in my mind is stating an opinion. and am just not sure what to think about the controlled demolition thoery. I am undecided on that. Although the videos I've looked at looks suspicious, I'm sure there could be another explanation to what looks like bombs going off.
Maybe curcuit breakers and such I don't know that is why I came here to get other views to help me make up my mind.
Peace
One problem most Scientist over analyze almost everything. not saying that toward the dicussions about 9/11. but some of the statements I made here were way over analyzed. Don't forget if you are a Scientist it's ok to over analyze 9/11 because that subject needs it.
But you are not psychologists it's not your job to analyze what you think someone means when they say a certain thing. I said yesterday that I thought the Official Story was BS. That in my mind is stating an opinion. and am just not sure what to think about the controlled demolition thoery. I am undecided on that. Although the videos I've looked at looks suspicious, I'm sure there could be another explanation to what looks like bombs going off.
Maybe curcuit breakers and such I don't know that is why I came here to get other views to help me make up my mind.
Peace
And if you take a $20 and fold it just right..........
Some people see what they want to see, right?
If you approach the collapse of the WTC towers as being CD, then you have to already have made up your mind that:
- Government agencies such as NIST are lying to you
- The MSM is covering up the conspiracy
- The US Government (or whoever your pet theory points to as being the conspirators) had a motive for wanting the towers demolished
- That the perps had the means to carry out the demolition
- That whatever means they used (assuming that it wasn't just the impacts and the fires) then that method was able to survive the initial impacts and subsequent fires
So, are you comfortable with all those preconceptions?
What people here are saying, although it needs to be spelled out in alphabet blocks for the fantasists, is that Dr. Greening is known as a well-respected scientist who has a few problems with the collapse mechanism described in the NIST Report. He has produced important work refuting the bogus science of such charlatans as Steven Jones and Jim Hoffman. He regards the central fantasy of the conspiracy liars, that America attacked itself, as absurd. Someone claiming to be Dr. Greening has been expressing sentiments that strike discordant notes, that appear incompatible with the level of sophistication one associates with him. Eventually, the fog will lift.
This is just my two cents, but neither P'doh nor Ace Baker is close to being intelligent enough to carry off this impersonation, if that is, in fact, what we're seeing. Is Gordon Ross a suspect?
For what it's worth, here is a letter from the real Frank Greening. Does our poster sound like this?
Ron,
I hadn't seen this article until you sent it to me. I read it last night and I have this to say about it (for now):
It is superficially well written and has, for the most part, a serious scientific tone. However, I believe it has a number of obvious errors. For example, on page 1 is says there is "little evidence of fires" in WTC 7. This is simply not true. (The CDers say essentially the same thing about WTC 1 & 2 - also not true!). On page 2 it says "more explosives were used......". What explosives!
However, the most serious issue for me is the old "it fell at near free fall" argument. I have previously carried out (unpublished) momentum tranfer calculations on WTC 7. I assumed that columns failed near the 5th to 7th floors and the upper block of about 40 floors fell one floor to start the global collapse. By the way, I ignored the initial formation of a kink visible at the roof and just consider the rapid descent of the main block. (I mention this point because if you include the kinking at the roof, the observed collapse time is over 15 seconds!)
My momentum transfer method gives a WTC 7 collapse time for the main block of about 6.7 seconds, which is close to the usually quoted figure and, yes indeed, only about 0.5 seconds slower than free fall. But I have no problem with this result. If you compare the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7, you will note that the number of floors in the descending block that crushed the floors below them was approx 15, 30 and 40 respectively. If you assume these buildings had about the same floor mass of say 3500 tonnes, you have the mass of the descending blocks equal to 52,500 tonnes (WTC 1); 105,000 tonnes (WTC 2); 140,000 tonnes (WTC 7). Thus WTC 7 had by far the largest "hammer" and was therefore the fastest crushing machine on a time per floor basis.
For the Twin Towers, the effective acceleration of the collapse was about 6 m/s^2. For WTC 7 it is more like 8 m/s^2 which is actually 20 % less than free fall - a significant amount. (I believe Mr. Legge's 9 m/s^2 figure makes no sense!) I actually also assumed that the energy needed to collapse one floor of WTC 7 was more than double the figure I used for the Twin Towers and still get a collapse in less than 7 seconds.
My final comment is that I have not made measurements of the drop distances as given on page 3 of the ST9/11 article. I would like to see the raw data used by Mr. Legge since his graph data points are only about 0.16 seconds apart and the author appears to be able to make height measurements accurate to within less than 50 centimeters from a video taken from (my guess) at least half a kilometer away!?!
Cheers, Frank
For what it's worth, here is a letter from the real Frank Greening. Does our poster sound like this?
Ron,
I hadn't seen this article until you sent it to me. I read it last night and I have this to say about it (for now):
It is superficially well written and has, for the most part, a serious scientific tone. However, I believe it has a number of obvious errors. For example, on page 1 is says there is "little evidence of fires" in WTC 7. This is simply not true. (The CDers say essentially the same thing about WTC 1 & 2 - also not true!). On page 2 it says "more explosives were used......". What explosives!
However, the most serious issue for me is the old "it fell at near free fall" argument. I have previously carried out (unpublished) momentum tranfer calculations on WTC 7. I assumed that columns failed near the 5th to 7th floors and the upper block of about 40 floors fell one floor to start the global collapse. By the way, I ignored the initial formation of a kink visible at the roof and just consider the rapid descent of the main block. (I mention this point because if you include the kinking at the roof, the observed collapse time is over 15 seconds!)
My momentum transfer method gives a WTC 7 collapse time for the main block of about 6.7 seconds, which is close to the usually quoted figure and, yes indeed, only about 0.5 seconds slower than free fall. But I have no problem with this result. If you compare the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7, you will note that the number of floors in the descending block that crushed the floors below them was approx 15, 30 and 40 respectively. If you assume these buildings had about the same floor mass of say 3500 tonnes, you have the mass of the descending blocks equal to 52,500 tonnes (WTC 1); 105,000 tonnes (WTC 2); 140,000 tonnes (WTC 7). Thus WTC 7 had by far the largest "hammer" and was therefore the fastest crushing machine on a time per floor basis.
For the Twin Towers, the effective acceleration of the collapse was about 6 m/s^2. For WTC 7 it is more like 8 m/s^2 which is actually 20 % less than free fall - a significant amount. (I believe Mr. Legge's 9 m/s^2 figure makes no sense!) I actually also assumed that the energy needed to collapse one floor of WTC 7 was more than double the figure I used for the Twin Towers and still get a collapse in less than 7 seconds.
My final comment is that I have not made measurements of the drop distances as given on page 3 of the ST9/11 article. I would like to see the raw data used by Mr. Legge since his graph data points are only about 0.16 seconds apart and the author appears to be able to make height measurements accurate to within less than 50 centimeters from a video taken from (my guess) at least half a kilometer away!?!
Cheers, Frank
ref
Master Poster
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Few things about bombs and explosions in the WTC.
Witness accounts that they heard explosions, are about the sound of the towers as they were collapsing, and some are about cars, trucks, etc. that were on fire after the collapses. None have seen actual bombs, or claim nowadays that actual bombs went off. Accounts before the collapse are of bodies from the towers hitting the ground or other structures.
A buildup of pressure caused by the compression of air between the floors pushed debris out of the already broken windows and/or open vents. That caused they squibs we can see.
If you see some flashes, remember how much electronic equipment, computers and such were in the towers.
There is nothing backing the bomb theory. Plus it would be way too risky to carry out, considering all the variables involved.
ref
Master Poster
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That letter sounded real, our poster not. Why would Dr. Greening at first disguise himself anyway. I would think real Dr. Greening would be polite enough to introduce himself from the beginning. I think we are indeed dealing with an imposter.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Ron,
Excellent guess(hypothesis) - I forget that Ross chimes in on boards in several locations, because I don't visit them often enough.
As I said, I wasn't sure if Ace could pull-off the science without putting his foot in his mouth, bigtime.... His hero and buddy Gordon Ross could, though. And Ross is very sharp-tongued and big on the terse comments.
Excellent guess(hypothesis) - I forget that Ross chimes in on boards in several locations, because I don't visit them often enough.
As I said, I wasn't sure if Ace could pull-off the science without putting his foot in his mouth, bigtime.... His hero and buddy Gordon Ross could, though. And Ross is very sharp-tongued and big on the terse comments.
If you look at my earlier posts. It isn't and I was not fooled for a minute by this sock of 28th Kingdom.
truthseeker10
Student
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- Apr 4, 2007
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- 36
What your saying here is that because I viewed a few documentaries and they mentioned CD I automatically have to believe what I saw. That is nonsense. Over analyzing
stateofgrace
Unregistered
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- 3,843
Ron, why not simply ask him? Maybe email him and ask if he is posting under this name?
I have reservations that it is Ross, I believe he as been here already and I know he posts under him actual name on other forums.
I have reservations that it is Ross, I believe he as been here already and I know he posts under him actual name on other forums.
truthseeker10
Student
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- 36
What kind of chemical compounds was there in the air that was discovered on or days and weeks after the attacks?
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Move It
Truthseeker10,
Arkan Wolfshade spun off a whole thread for you. Why don't you post in it. (First couple of days on the forum, and you've got your very own thread!!!)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78677
Frankly, this is a mature discussion and you're asking basic CT 101 questions that we've dealt with hundreds of times, already. There are numerous people who'd be happy to respond, I'm sure, but this thread is kind of a graduate course.
Truthseeker10,
Arkan Wolfshade spun off a whole thread for you. Why don't you post in it. (First couple of days on the forum, and you've got your very own thread!!!)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78677
Frankly, this is a mature discussion and you're asking basic CT 101 questions that we've dealt with hundreds of times, already. There are numerous people who'd be happy to respond, I'm sure, but this thread is kind of a graduate course.
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
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- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 8,339
I have to admit it does sound a little strange for Dr. Greening, However I also know that he believes there are still reasons to look into and investigate 9/11/2001.
If the poster is in fact Dr. Greening some one who knows a lot more about the collapses and reactions in the towers than I do, he is probably just fed up with the scientific communities lack of continued interest in what went on during the collapses.
Since the NIST report came out the scientific community has kind of turned a blind eye to what happened after collapse initiation.
There may in fact be important evidence in that part of this that is missing.
Most of the Scientific community I have sent questions too just tell me now that the subject is closed!
I believe that Dr. Greening is getting the same reply, and is kind of feed up with it, it is I must say a similar attitude that we have seen on Jerf recently, but I think Debunker-Cter burn out would be a more complete description.
The Scientific Community tells me, that the case is closed, the Cter community tells me that I should die, because I was on the Tonight show with Jay Leno and he has connections with popular mechanics.
Or because I carved Ally White's Initials in my toe nails, and she sang boot scoot Boogie for GWB during an event in Kentucky she by the way is a liberal Democrat.
Or because I question the Great god of cold Fusion Dr Steven E. Jones, and what I did counters his work, and I do not have a PhD.
If any of you knows another Cter that wants me dead, please let him know where I can be found, it is not like I am trying to keep a low profile.
I thought when I got into this it was about the truth, not placing dots on a page, because you place enough dots and all you come up with is a blank black picture of nothing!
Where is the truth When one side will not talk, and the other only wants to kill you for asking the question in the first place?
I always thought of Science as the search for the ultimate truths in life, I am now quite disillusioned.
PS. encase anyone is wondering why I carved Miss Whites initials into my toe nails with a chainsaw, here is who Miss White is.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=28493079
I have known Ally and her mom Debbie for a long time were friends.
The truthers want to kill me for knowing a beautiful lady?
To me it seems the whole world has just gone Nuts!
If the poster is in fact Dr. Greening some one who knows a lot more about the collapses and reactions in the towers than I do, he is probably just fed up with the scientific communities lack of continued interest in what went on during the collapses.
Since the NIST report came out the scientific community has kind of turned a blind eye to what happened after collapse initiation.
There may in fact be important evidence in that part of this that is missing.
Most of the Scientific community I have sent questions too just tell me now that the subject is closed!
I believe that Dr. Greening is getting the same reply, and is kind of feed up with it, it is I must say a similar attitude that we have seen on Jerf recently, but I think Debunker-Cter burn out would be a more complete description.
The Scientific Community tells me, that the case is closed, the Cter community tells me that I should die, because I was on the Tonight show with Jay Leno and he has connections with popular mechanics.
Or because I carved Ally White's Initials in my toe nails, and she sang boot scoot Boogie for GWB during an event in Kentucky she by the way is a liberal Democrat.
Or because I question the Great god of cold Fusion Dr Steven E. Jones, and what I did counters his work, and I do not have a PhD.
If any of you knows another Cter that wants me dead, please let him know where I can be found, it is not like I am trying to keep a low profile.
I thought when I got into this it was about the truth, not placing dots on a page, because you place enough dots and all you come up with is a blank black picture of nothing!
Where is the truth When one side will not talk, and the other only wants to kill you for asking the question in the first place?
I always thought of Science as the search for the ultimate truths in life, I am now quite disillusioned.
PS. encase anyone is wondering why I carved Miss Whites initials into my toe nails with a chainsaw, here is who Miss White is.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=28493079
I have known Ally and her mom Debbie for a long time were friends.
The truthers want to kill me for knowing a beautiful lady?
To me it seems the whole world has just gone Nuts!
truthseeker10
Student
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2007
- Messages
- 36
So now I'm not smart enough or up to date enough for you all. I also didn't ask for a thread either. But I guess I can go check this **** out
TruthSeeker1234
Banned
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- Sep 9, 2006
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- 1,756
Here's a quote from a letter to me from the real Frank Greening. Does Apollo20 sound like this?
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
Crazy C:
It is not that we are not interested in what wend on during the collapse.
If Apollo20 is Dr. Greening, he knows the reason why the investigation stopped at collapse--
There is no way to model it accurately. PEriod. Even for an empty, powered down building, the variables are tremendous--rivit configurations and conditions, joint status, material and geometry variations (No two things--beams, rivets, concrete pours, etc., are ever identical)--even construction techniques--were some bolts tighter fits in the hole, under a higher pre-load, etc.
Even if such were identified, the computer simulations break down when non-linear geometry and non-linear materials reach much past yield.
That is not to say it cannot be done, but currently there isn't enough computer power in the world to run the simulation post-collapse. When you add in the placement of desks/bookshelves/computers/people/knick-nacks (all floor loading--for 1 acre each floor), the state of the electrical load, the condition of the electrical equipment (Transformers, breaker configuration) the power draw throughout the collapse (important to determine the energy available when transformers and big electrical stuff goes Boom!)--all variables--the situation is simply too big, and too unimportant in the scheme of things to even consider. What is important is understanding events up to that collapse.
Not that it wouldn't be fun to try, but several generations of engineers and scientists would be involved in such an effort.