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Debate! What debate?

Gravy said:
My concern, which I expressed earlier, is that the iron particles Apollo refers to be distinguishable from the enormous amount of airborne iron produced by the ironworkers' torches, which was a main source of health concern for workers on the piles.
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I agree. Beyond the torches as a source, however, I was wondering, I guess more specifically, does the iron have to have been made liquid in order for the particles to be spherical. In other words, would microscopic particles of iron that got there from a column "cracking off" be spherical, or are we purely dealing with the biproduct of MOLTEN iron when we se spherical particles?

TAM:
 
Well, we're all glued to our seats. Possibly no more qualified person to comment on the "interesting chemistry" than Apollo20. So we have spherules of iron, and molten zinc, and high levels of chlorine.

On the iron, Dr. Jones will say it's from thermite. Dr. Wood will wonder if DEWs could have done it. NIST will say they weren't charged with studying that. And JREFs will say it's from ironworkers.

I applaud Apollo for taking a hard look some of the data. These studies being government studies, we have to question the numbers, but it's hard to see why they would make up something strange. If they were going to fabricate data, they would do so to support the official story.

My first question is: Could whatever caused the spherules of iron have caused even smaller spherules of iron, such that those smaller ones went upwards into the atmospere? Perhaps this will help solve the mystery of the missing steel.
 
T.A.M. said:
I agree. Beyond the torches as a source, however, I was wondering, I guess more specifically, does the iron have to have been made liquid in order for the particles to be spherical. In other words, would microscopic particles of iron that got there from a column "cracking off" be spherical, or are we purely dealing with the biproduct of MOLTEN iron when we se spherical particles?

TAM:
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I believe Apollo has answered that, and said that it must be molten, and that the surface tension on the liquid is what allows a spherical shape to form.
 
So what do microscopic pieces of iron look like if they simply are the result of fragmenting or "cracking off" of iron columns...jagged I suppose...makes sense. My questions here are honest TS.

Edit: another question, for Apollo, in the analysis, were ALL the iron particles spherical? What percentage of the iron particles found were spherical?

TAM:)
 
First of all I will drop the NIST-bashing. I can see its too hot. I wouldn't want to burn the GRAVY.

I am disappointed that I have been so misinterpreted.

The 9/11 truthers have been exposed by their reaction to a new conspiracy theory.

All I have attempted to show is that:

YOU TOO CAN WRITE A CONSPIRACY THEORY

And one that is way better than the feeble efforts of Jones and Wood.

I will post it as soon as I can, but I offer it as a "movie script" and will have no further comment!
 
Apollo20 said:
First of all I will drop the NIST-bashing. I can see its too hot. I wouldn't want to burn the GRAVY.

I am disappointed that I have been so misinterpreted.

The 9/11 truthers have been exposed by their reaction to a new conspiracy theory.

All I have attempted to show is that:

YOU TOO CAN WRITE A CONSPIRACY THEORY

And one that is way better than the feeble efforts of Jones and Wood.

I will post it as soon as I can, but I offer it as a "movie script" and will have no further comment!
Click to expand...

I have the happy ending for your movie.
 
PhantomWolf said:
I that people did know it was going to collapse, and the fire chiefs had already radioed through an evacuate order to the crews in Tower 2 before it went. Radio problems (which appartently still haven't been fixed) and lack of time to get out was what lead to the deaths.
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Actually, that was in tower 1 (north) before the collapse of 2. I'm not aware of anyone on the scene who predicted the collapse of 2.
 
Ammonium perchlorate, NH4ClO4, is a colorless, odorless, compound that is stable at room temperature. However, when heated to above 300 °C, or subjected to friction or impact, it becomes violently reactive. In fact, ammonium perchlorate is a much-used ingredient in explosives, pyrothechnics and solid propellants such as those used in the space shuttle booster rockets.

The decomposition reactions of ammonium perchlorate are complex and variable: Cl2, HCl, NH3, N2O, NO, N2, H2O and O2 have been consistently observed as major products. The decomposition reaction is highly exothermic, releasing about 2 MJ/kg of heat energy, and is accompanied by the production of about 800 liters/kg of gases. The combustion of ammonium perchlorate in oxygen-rich atmospheres produces a diffusion flame at about 3200 °C

The decomposition of samples of pure ammonium perchlorate at 225 °C is 25 % complete after 4 hours. However, if the ammonium perchlorate is mixed with suitable metal oxide catalysts the decomposition is accelerated. Among the large number of metal oxides that have been investigated as AP decomposition catalysts, such as Al2O3, CaO, Fe2O3 and MnO2, manganese dioxide is found to be by far the most effective. Thus an addition of 10 % by weight of MnO2 to ammonium perchlorate increases the decomposition rate by a factor of about 2. Based on these properties of ammonium perchlorate / manganese dioxide mixtures, the following scenario is presented as a new collapse theory:

1. The Twin Towers were Primed with AP:

Ammonium perchlorate powder, probably containing manganese dioxide and other additives (e.g. Al, HMX, etc.), was prepared and mixed with a binding agent (polysulfide?) and one or more of the five spray-on fire resistive (thermal insulation) materials used in WTC 1 & 2. These materials are identified in NIST NCSTAR 1-6A as: (1) Blaze-shield Type D, (2) Blaze-shield Type DC/F, (3) Blaze-shield Type II, (4) Monokote MK-5, and (5) Vermiculite aggregate plaster. In order to determine where and when these material were applied to surfaces in the Twin Towers we need to consider the history of the “passive fire protection” practices employed by the New York Port Authority during and after the construction of the towers, starting in 1970 and ending in 2001.

On April 13, 1970, New York City issued a ban on the use of all sprayed on thermal insulations containing asbestos, the notorious fibrous silicate mineral that was a major component of Blaze-shield Type D. The use of asbestos-containing insulation was discontinued at this time at the 38th floor of WTC 1. In February 1975, a fire occurred in WTC 1 that affected floors 9 to 19 and led to a review of the adequacy of the existing thermal insulation in the entire WTC. The need to upgrade the passive fire protection in the Twin Towers was finally addressed in 1995 when, after yet another study, it was decided to apply a 1½ inch thickness of an asbestos-free spray-on mineral fiber fire protection material to selected steel surfaces. Thus, between 1995 and 2001, thermal protection was upgraded specifically on 18 floors in WTC 1, including floors 92 to 100 and 102; and on 13 floors in WTC 2 including floors 77, 78, 88, 89, 92 and 97. (See NIST NCSTAR 1-6A page xxxvii).

How much thermal protection was used? A reasonable estimate would be a thickness of 2 cm over an effective area of 2500 m2 or 50 m3 per floor. If we assume the material had a density of 400 kg/m3 there would have been 20 tonnes of thermal protection per floor.

It should be noted that the specific floor selection would have been made on the basis of the need to apply fire protection material to a particular area. Thus protection would have been sprayed on areas that were known to be vulnerable to fire damage. However, in the AP theory, the fire protector was, in fact, a fire accelerant or pyrotechnic, most probably an ammonium perchlorate/manganese dioxide mixture blended with a portland cement-based binder, or something similar. Given the fact that upgrading of the passive fire protection of WTC 1 & 2 was an on-going project throughout the late 1990s, a deadly pyrotechnic coating could have been applied almost anywhere and at any time during this period. If we assume that the normal cement-based material was “spiked” with 25 wt.% of our pyrotechnic mixture, up to 5 tonnes of ammonium perchlorate could have been sprayed onto a designated floor. Furthermore, once applied to a particular floor, the coating would have remained undisturbed, unnoticed, and with no loss of potency, until it was triggered by the events of September 11th 2001.


2. Boeing 767 Aircraft Strike the Towers and Start Fires

It is documented in the NIST and FEMA WTC Reports that the aircraft strikes on the Twin Towers on the morning of September 11th 2001 inflicted major structural damage to several floors of each tower. NIST’s assessment of the damage is based on modeling of a Boeing 767 aircraft, weighing about 125 tonnes and traveling at about 500 mph, crashing into each tower and igniting about 30 tons of jet fuel. A spectacular fireball was seen after each aircraft impact and the blast overpressure caused considerable damage to office furniture, wallboards, ceiling tiles and windows on the impacted floors. However, it is believed that this over-pressure was insufficient to have damaged the structural steel support columns; hence, structural damage that did occur was inflicted by direct kinetic energy transfer.

On the other hand, if ammonium perchlorate-impregnated insulation was pre-planted on the upper floors of the Twin Towers and was subsequently subjected to hard impact, a violent detonation would have occurred which would have greatly intensified the energy release compared to a simple fuel-air deflagration. What is more important, however, is that the protracted fires that followed the aircraft impacts would have been more damaging than expected if the upper floors of the towers were primed with ammonium perchlorate - a potent oxidizing agent that would have been activated as the surface temperatures in affected areas reached 250-300 °C.

Just a movie script (like Jones' script; like Wood's script).

Please don't ask me to defend a movie script/theory.........
 
Apollo20 said:
First of all I will drop the NIST-bashing. I can see its too hot. I wouldn't want to burn the GRAVY.

I am disappointed that I have been so misinterpreted.

The 9/11 truthers have been exposed by their reaction to a new conspiracy theory.

All I have attempted to show is that:

YOU TOO CAN WRITE A CONSPIRACY THEORY

And one that is way better than the feeble efforts of Jones and Wood.

I will post it as soon as I can, but I offer it as a "movie script" and will have no further comment!
Click to expand...


And I thought some of the regulars were subtle in their humour...lol

TAM:)
 
ok...i have to ask....do you believe in your suggested theory?

lol

TAM:)
 
First of all I will drop the NIST-bashing. I can see its too hot. I wouldn't want to burn the GRAVY.

I don't think it is at all too hot, but if you have gripes with the NIST report then you should be prepared for demands to back it up with something more than handwaving and perdantic sematics.

I am disappointed that I have been so misinterpreted.

When you go to a party wearing oversized shoes, a poka-dot bow tie, and a red nose, be prepared to be treated as a clown.

The 9/11 truthers have been exposed by their reaction to a new conspiracy theory.

All I have attempted to show is that:

YOU TOO CAN WRITE A CONSPIRACY THEORY

And one that is way better than the feeble efforts of Jones and Wood.

50 writer's blocked and blind monkeys could do better than those two.

I will post it as soon as I can, but I offer it as a "movie script" and will have no further comment!

Well as long as you make your position on it clear from the beinging then it could be interesting. If you hide your intent, don't get upset if people attack it and pull it to pieces.
 
But I STILL think my Godzilla Theory is more plausible, would make a better movie. Starting the screenplay now.

Anybody out there look like Raymond Burr? Auditions next Friday...
 
Apollo20 said:
Please don't ask me to defend a movie script/theory.........
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Okay, but don't expect us to overlook factual errors and wild exaggerations for effect, such as

It had the history of the collapse encoded in every grain of dust and sand.
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Suppose NIST made that statement? Would you really not take them to task for it?
 
Gravy:

No, me take NIST to task! Nevertheless, I still think it's true, but who could inspect every grain? However, if you looked at 1 %........... or even 0.1 %
 
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