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Death..

Cheer up. There's always the Many Worlds Theorem of Quantum Immortality, which proves that no-one can ever die. No, really.

On the other hand there's the Doomsday Argument, which proves that we're all going to die, and soon.

Choose your poison. :)
 
Our various mythologies do seem to reflect some aspects of our known universe.
There's an obvious nastiness to reality. Its not that surprising that we came up with 'god-fearing' religious beliefs. This is the realm of mosquitoes, after all.
 
quarky said:
Our various mythologies do seem to reflect some aspects of our known universe.
There's an obvious nastiness to reality. Its not that surprising that we came up with 'god-fearing' religious beliefs. This is the realm of mosquitoes, after all.
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Mosquitos are just a pest, and even when they spread disease, it affects a minority of the world's total population (although it still is a lot of people, yes). (And if the mosquitos could talk, I bet they would complain of the humans that destroy their nests when able, and kill them while they attempt to get food for their eggs...)

However, the universe does seem quite hostile, more often than not, to human life. This is looking outside of this world, at the cold harshness of space, and the cold reality of a universe that really doesn't care one way or the other what happens to you -- unconscious, yet ultimate, forces of nature.

However, even then, cold and dangerous reality seems to have little concept of the infinite. I can't think of anything in the universe that can be expressed by infinity. Yet many religions not only has the concept of the infinite, but also infinite life, even after our material core has ceased to function.

What's worse, some religions have the concept of the infinite life in punishment. Can you imagine hearing an annoying noise for years on end? What about decades? Centuries? Just sitting there and hearing this annoying noise, no matter what you do. This ringing, that you can't put out of your head, that you can't just ignore, that swamps your thoughts so much you can barely think or concentrate on anything for too long. For years... and years... and years... and years... and years...

That's just an annoyance. Imagine torture for such a length. Searing agony, burning that never dies down, pain that never fades, never allowing you to concentrate, or feeling anything else.

Now times the amount of time by 10, and keep doing that. You can do that millions of times, and you're still nowhere close to infinity. You can multiply a googolplex by a googolplex by a googolplex, and you're STILL nowhere close to infinity. Infinity has no number, and cannot expressed in any way that truly resembles anything in human experience, or as far as I see it, much experience of the universe. It's truly INFINITE. It's not just multiplying googolplexes together; it's multiplying an INFINITE amount of googolplexes together. There is no end to it.

I think that the greatest reason to assume an infinite amount of punishment, is that the average human truly has no understanding of the term "infinite". It's this awesome thing, and they recognize it as such, but they still don't get it.

The cold universe is far more merciful than any such a concept. The cold, uncaring universe is actually far more merciful than an omnipotent being that cares so much, he tortures you if you don't do as he says.
 
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bokonon said:
On the one hand, fire and brimstone.

On the other hand, an eternity of obsequious groveling so monotonous it would make a billion choruses of "100 bottles of beer on the wall" seem like a thrill ride on the dark side of the moon by comparison:

"When we've been there
10,000 years
Bright shining as the sun
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun."

So, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
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The writers of that verse don't know how to think BIG.

Ten thousand years? How about ten trillion?

How about a trillion trillion? After you've endured this, you haven't even been there one trillionth of the time you're going to be there.

Suddenly, the whole concept seems less benevolent when you think in terms of these time scales.
 
No one's yet pointed out the obvious answer- if it frightens you that much, you could join a religion and cover your bets. That's how most people seem to handle the problem.

Of course, there's the problem of which is the right religion to pick since you will also go to hell if you pick the wrong one (you still stand a greater chance than continuing to be a godless heathen, however). Try Mormonism and see how it works for you.
 
Hokulele said:
Pah, after a few hours, the endorphins kick in.
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Actually that was the clincher for me-- not endorphins... but lack of them... lack of a brain or skin or anything that is required to "feel" anguish or pleasure for that matter.

I didn't feel or know or experience anything before I was born because "I" didn't exist until my brain developed consciouness of existence. If a person cannot form a new memory without a hippocampus nor feel anything when certain anesthetics are given to the brain-- how can there be any experience of anything after death? Even with a material brain we are incapable of "feeling" anything for any length of time. Feeling and thinking require constant movement of chemicals in our brain--it's the pattern that is "thinking" and "feeling" and "remembering". Feeling requires a contrast to prior feeling--and therefore it requires a brain.

Understanding that no-one COULD know anything about supposed "souls" and afterlives including people who imagine they astrally travel or those who wrote holy books or believe they get revelations. How can you know about invisible undetectable things? I stopped worrying about hell and getting my "eternity" right until someone proves that souls exist.

I see the allure of believing in such, but it ends up making a person vulnerable to anyone who can convince a person that they know how to make the afterlife super duper rather than the ultimate in heinous.

Note to Slingblade: as for multiple gods, I always think it's amusing when there are multiple "Gods" in any mental institution-- toss in the prophets and sons of gods and you've got a ready made pantheon of nuttery. Sure, TAM is nutty... but we tend to keep our supposed omniscience to ourselves. :p

 
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ravdin said:
No one's yet pointed out the obvious answer- if it frightens you that much, you could join a religion and cover your bets. That's how most people seem to handle the problem.

Of course, there's the problem of which is the right religion to pick since you will also go to hell if you pick the wrong one (you still stand a greater chance than continuing to be a godless heathen, however). Try Mormonism and see how it works for you.
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http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=379326
 
ravdin said:
No one's yet pointed out the obvious answer- if it frightens you that much, you could join a religion and cover your bets. That's how most people seem to handle the problem.

Of course, there's the problem of which is the right religion to pick since you will also go to hell if you pick the wrong one (you still stand a greater chance than continuing to be a godless heathen, however). Try Mormonism and see how it works for you.
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Dymanic did already--that's the essence of Pascal's wager. My issue with that wager is the same as yours--which god(s) do I hedge my bets on? So I became a Unitarian Universalist, and believe in all of them! I'll be looking down on all you losers from heaven--eat it! :boxedin:
 
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I just couldn't figure out what was the right thing to believe or how to make myself believe it with the right fervency to please the omniscient whomever who could read my mind.

So many weird nebulous rubrics based on what you "believe", "feel", or "think"--

I don't even know how to make myself "believe" something. I don't think I could have willed myself to be an "unbeliever" if I tried during my believing days. I might have told myself that I was afraid not to believe... but the truth was, I was afraid to think about what exactly I believed in case it caused me to suffer "loss of faith" and "scary unknowable consequences".

I realize I was likely doomed no matter what I "tried" to believe or which nebulous rubric I tried to follow, but I decided not to worry until someone proved to me that souls COULD be real-- that any entity could exist without a material brain-- that there was a way to distinguish such and entity from a delusion or demon or god or angel or sprite or Thetan. It's just to easy to give invisible undetectable entities whatever qualities you want them to have.
 
shawmutt said:
Dymanic did already--that's the essence of Pascal's wager. My issue with that wager is the same as yours--which god(s) do I hedge my bets on? So I became a Unitarian Universalist, and believe in all of them! I'll be looking down on all you losers from heaven--eat it! :boxedin:
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Rock On! I'm sure they'll have 24-7 immaterial cable access so you can enjoy the eternal suffering of those who weren't as wise as you. But are you really, really sure that you have faith-- how do you know that you have the right amount of it often enough? What would you be wiling to do to "prove" to the invisible pantheon that you believe in them? And whatever will you do about those jealous gods who aren't into people worshiping other deities?

I think you might be as screwed as the rest of us. We'll leave the light on.
 
I think the notion of eternal damnation has got to be the most twisted things humans have come up with to manipulate other humans. It's such a useful meme... because people want to believe they are "eternal souls".... and religions claim to know how to make this eternity "blissful"-- it's so easy... but the kicker is what happens if you don't follow the rules: eternal anguish! ETERNAL. They invent the problem and then force you to be beholden to them with their proffered cure. It's the essence of all successful (virulent) religions, isn't it.

It's the chain letter meme: good things will happen if you believe (and spread the word); bad things will happen if you don't-- only on a massive scale where the price is ETERNITY. We humans have come up with some pretty twisted things to dick each other around with. I mean it's clever... but it can be so so cruel.
 
We start with coal in our Christmas stockings as children and it all just goes downhill from there...
 
Not to defend religion (again), but what is being described here is pretty extreme fundamentalism which doesn't necessarily represent mainstream religious thought.
I don't even know any Catholics that still believe in eternal damnation.

Jews certainly don't; nor Buddists. Isn't it pretty much southern babtists?
 
quarky said:
Jews certainly don't; nor Buddists. Isn't it pretty much southern babtists?
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In fairness, neither do Mormons (at least this is what an ex-Mormon once told me). There are three levels of heaven and the third best heaven is better than anything you can imagine. Apparently it's where non-Mormons (including Hitler) are slated to go. By becoming a good Mormon, you might get into one of the more upscale afterlife levels (and perhaps even ascend to godhood). Getting into a heaven that's even better than what I can already imagine... sounds pretty sweet.

So you might want to try one of the fire and brimstone religions because if Mormonism is the one true faith, then even in the worst case scenario you'll be OK.
 
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quarky said:
Not to defend religion (again), but what is being described here is pretty extreme fundamentalism which doesn't necessarily represent mainstream religious thought.
I don't even know any Catholics that still believe in eternal damnation.

Jews certainly don't; nor Buddists. Isn't it pretty much southern babtists?
Click to expand...

I was raised Baptist. By age three I was already in the seventh level of Hell.
 
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