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Death Penalty

People who believe that Deterrence is the primary function of punishment will err on the side of sentencing anyone , so that people will make greater efforts not to get into any situation that might see them accused of a serious crime.
These are usually the same people who blame others for foolishly letting themselves be born to non-affluent parents.
 
Nessie said:
A more reliable CJ is system is simply achieved by more honest and better educated and trained police and prosecutors, who understand evidencing and are not chasing targets based on detections and convictions.
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That seems optimistic.

Roboramma said:
I agree with this, but it seems if the error rate really is this high then the criminal justice system is also too unreliable for long prison sentences as well.
Sending an innocent person to prison for 25 years may be better than killing them, but it's not that much better. It's still horrific.

And yet, we need a criminal justice system. One that both deters future crime and removes known offenders from the streets.
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Thing there is that you can eventually overturn convictions, commute sentences and what not, you can't do that with death. So, sure, long sentences for innocent people are bad but they aren't nearly as bad as death. What's the option for murderers?
 
Nessie said:
A more reliable CJ is system is simply achieved by more honest and better educated and trained police and prosecutors, who understand evidencing and are not chasing targets based on detections and convictions.
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I do not think that word means what you think it means. The usual definition of "simply" does not really cover what will be required to get better educated and trained police and prosecutors, who understand evidencing and are not chasing targets based on detections and convictions.
 
jeremyp said:
I do not think that word means what you think it means. The usual definition of "simply" does not really cover what will be required to get better educated and trained police and prosecutors, who understand evidencing and are not chasing targets based on detections and convictions.
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It is simple to educate the police to be evidence gatherers, that a successful enquiry is one where all evidence is gathered and proving an accused did not commit a crime, so preventing a miscarriage of justice, is as big a success as proving someone did commit the crime.

That cultural change is not a complicated one.
 
Nessie said:
A more reliable CJ is system is simply achieved by more honest and better educated and trained police and prosecutors, who understand evidencing and are not chasing targets based on detections and convictions.
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That sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure how we get there from here.

How do we get the incentives of police and prosecutors to line up with the needs of society?
 
Chris_Halkides said:
lionking,

You are most welcome. Obviously, I agree about the death penalty, although reforming the CJ system will have to include additional changes.
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The American CJ system, in particular, has so many problems that it's easy to despair of it ever becoming more humane.

The Great Zaganza said:
People who believe that Deterrence is the primary function of punishment will err on the side of sentencing anyone , so that people will make greater efforts not to get into any situation that might see them accused of a serious crime.
These are usually the same people who blame others for foolishly letting themselves be born to non-affluent parents.
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If deterrence is the primary function of punishment, then it makes sense to make punishment as horrific, painful, and public as possible, in order to maximise the deterrent effect.
 
First day back and another miscarriage of justice to ignore, not their job I guess.

Texas man sent to death row over junk science denied US supreme court appeal
A Texas prisoner who is facing execution having been sent to death row on the basis of “shaken baby syndrome”, a child abuse theory that has been widely debunked as junk science, has had his petition to the US supreme court denied.

The country’s highest court issued its denial on Monday morning giving no explanation. Robert Roberson, 56, who was sent to death row in 2003 for shaking his two-year-old daughter Nikki to death, had appealed to the justices to take another look at his case focusing on the largely discredited forensic science on which his conviction was secured.
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And from the looks of it, the guy didn't have a history of child abuse and the child didn't have medical evidence of a history of being abused.

... Last month, an appeals court in New Jersey ruled that the theory was “junk science” and “scientifically unreliable”.

In Nikki’s case, several of the alternative causes that scientists have identified for the symptoms linked to shaken baby syndrome have been found to apply to the toddler. The girl had been ill with a fever of 104.5F (40.3C) shortly before she collapsed, had undiagnosed pneumonia, and had been given medical pills that are no longer considered safe for children as they can be life-threatening.
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Had the doctors read the latest and greatest diagnostic news? Wanted attention from colleagues for their bold move and superior knowledge? Knee-jerk reaction to cover-up their own or a colleague's misdiagnosis or inadequate treatment of a toddler with a high fever of unknown origin?

No doubt inadequate defense was involved, it always is.

20 ******* years. :mad:

Now the poor bastard has to rely on the alt-right Abbott just to avoid execution when he should have been given a new trial as soon as shaken baby syndrome was discredited. Those ******* prosecutors never want to let go.
 
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Roboramma said:
That sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure how we get there from here.

How do we get the incentives of police and prosecutors to line up with the needs of society?
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Stop using targets for number of detections and convictions. Start holding cops and prosecutors responsible for miscarriages of justice, with a process that requires them to explain their actions, even post retirement, as part of an enquiry into what went wrong.
 
Angelo Herndon case

The case of Angelo Herndon was unknown to me until quite recently. His possession of literature from the communist party ran afoul of a Georgia statute on insurrection. "Although it rendered a guilty verdict on January 18, 1933, only three days after the trial opened, the jury recommended mercy, shielding Herndon from a possible death sentence."

I acknowledge that only a few death penalty cases do not involve murder, but a few fall into this category, such as Caryl Chessman.
 
Thor 2 said:
Was somewhat surprised to find no reference to this on this forum when I did a search.

Given that a high percentage of posters here are from the US of A, and this being the last developed Western country retaining the death penalty in many states, I would like to hear their opinions.

Mind you I suspect that most here, being probably brighter that the average Joe Blogs on the street, would be anti the death penalty.
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The death penalty is not supposed to be a form of revenge in theory. It is supposed to be a deterrent. Should we spare monsters like Ted Bundy> Jeffrey Dahmer? John Wayne Gacy? in my opinion they should be given the death penalty. It should be a part of the "you reap what you sew" philosophy. Many of the very worst murderers have killed and tortured children for thei sexual amusement. Should they be spared? Do they deserve life even if their life in incarceration is an unhappy if not outright miserable existence? Rapist murderers especially child rapist murderers are targeted for death by their fellow inmates. Jeffrey Dahmer was executed by a fellow inmate.


Why show mercy to a completely obnoxious and worthless killer? Ahumane painless death for them to me is justice.
 
Cainkane1 said:
The death penalty is not supposed to be a form of revenge in theory. It is supposed to be a deterrent. Should we spare monsters like Ted Bundy> Jeffrey Dahmer? John Wayne Gacy? in my opinion they should be given the death penalty. It should be a part of the "you reap what you sew" philosophy. Many of the very worst murderers have killed and tortured children for thei sexual amusement. Should they be spared? Do they deserve life even if their life in incarceration is an unhappy if not outright miserable existence? Rapist murderers especially child rapist murderers are targeted for death by their fellow inmates. Jeffrey Dahmer was executed by a fellow inmate.


Why show mercy to a completely obnoxious and worthless killer? Ahumane painless death for them to me is justice.
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Your whole post argues that it's not about deterrence, but very much about revenge.
 
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The effect of the "deterrent" angle when it comes to most individual crimes is rather limited, regardless. I think that the "prevent further harm" line of argument is far more rooted in reality. The death penalty isn't the only way to do that, though, and may often be inferior to life time imprisonment without parole.
 
Robert DuBoise case in Tampa, Florida

Judge Harry Coe overruled the jury's recommendation, and he gave Robert DuBoise the death penalty. Mr. DuBoise was later exonerated.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
If you believe it's supposed to be a deterrent, and it's not, what other purpose does it serve?

If you say justice. Justice for who?
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Well, how about justice for society in general?

Ok, imposing the death penalty will not "bring back" the deceased. But, there are a lot of people affected by someone's murder whom are stull very much alive:
- Family and friends of the deceased who have to cope with the loss
- Citizens (and taxpayers) that have to spend the resources to investigate the crime
- Strangers who may feel some empathy with the victim, or who may have been the ones to discover the body
- The first responders, many of whom I am sure would rather not have to deal with dead bodies on a regular basis
All these people are harmed to some degree or other by a murder.

For the record, I used to be in favor of the death penalty. (I felt that there were some individuals who's crimes were so heinous that they should forfeit their right to life.) I no longer support the death penalty however. Not that I am opposed to the concept, but I just do not think there is any way it can be applied without accidently having an innocent person executed.
 
Segnosaur said:
Well, how about justice for society in general?

Ok, imposing the death penalty will not "bring back" the deceased. But, there are a lot of people affected by someone's murder whom are stull very much alive:
- Family and friends of the deceased who have to cope with the loss
- Citizens (and taxpayers) that have to spend the resources to investigate the crime
- Strangers who may feel some empathy with the victim, or who may have been the ones to discover the body
- The first responders, many of whom I am sure would rather not have to deal with dead bodies on a regular basis
All these people are harmed to some degree or other by a murder.

For the record, I used to be in favor of the death penalty. (I felt that there were some individuals who's crimes were so heinous that they should forfeit their right to life.) I no longer support the death penalty however. Not that I am opposed to the concept, but I just do not think there is any way it can be applied without accidently having an innocent person executed.
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There are numerous reasons to oppose the death penalty, error being one of the biggest, but it does not change the fact that at some level, there are people who deserve it. And though I would be loath to execute anyone, there are plenty of people whose death I do not regret.
 
bruto said:
There are numerous reasons to oppose the death penalty, error being one of the biggest, but it does not change the fact that at some level, there are people who deserve it. And though I would be loath to execute anyone, there are plenty of people whose death I do not regret.
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Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
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-Tolkien
 
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