• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Death Penalty

AmyStrange said:
I mostly agree, but what criteria do you use to establish it really is beyond reasonable doubt.

I think the closest we can come is with cases like Gary Ridgway who knew where all the bodies were buried.

Personally, I'd rather see him suffer, but I do get the reason he got LWOP.

Can you imagine having someone you love disappear and never knowing what happened to them?
Click to expand...
Can you imagine your twelve year old daughter being kidnapped out of her bedroom by a kinfe weilding drugged up stinking man, sexually molested and then strangled to death like Polly Klaus was?
 
shuttlt said:
I'm not sure that that suspicion is worth much. Before I had kids, I didn't really know what it was like to have kids. It surprised me how my reactions changed to news stories where children came to harm. Similarly I didn't really know how I would feel when my father died until it happened. One can reason about "what it must be like", but we don't really know until it happens. Same here.
Click to expand...

Ok, I can see that, but I do know what it feels like to have a loved one disappear and never know what happened to them.

Trust me, it's one of the worst feelings in the world.

I hope this never happens to you, but you'll know what I mean if it happens to one of your children or if one of them is ever executed and you know they're innocent.
 
Last edited:
Cainkane1 said:
Can you imagine your twelve year old daughter being kidnapped out of her bedroom by a kinfe weilding drugged up stinking man, sexually molested and then strangled to death like Polly Klaus was?
Click to expand...

No, I cannot, and I hope I never find out.

ETA: Would I want the killer dead? No. I'd rather have him strangled over and over for years and years or shackled to a wall naked and being allowed to whack them in the nuts with a lead pipe over and over and over...

And yes, I can be a sadistic son of a bitch in my mind when it comes to someone hurting children or animals, but I'd rather know what happened if they disappeared rather than never know, and I do have personal experience with that.
 
Last edited:
Dave Rogers said:
Not by me. I may disagree, but I respect the intellectual honesty of someone who states their position instead of JAQing off.

Dave
Click to expand...

It is funny that you mention intellectual honesty. Because, what I have done here is expose the intellectual dishonesty of a number of posters. You see, they hide behind their claims that they are primarily concerned about innocents, or costs, when that is not really their true motivator. That is why they can't even endorse the singular, prompt execution of a mass-murderer.

Seems to really frustrate some, being exposed. Or maybe they are dealing with an internal conflict over their position.

I guess I was mysterious about my position, though. I support capital punishment. Hope that helps clarify matters for you, although I think most have picked up on this already.
 
Warp12 said:
It is funny that you mention intellectual honesty. Because, what I have done here is expose the intellectual dishonesty of a number of posters. You see, they hide behind their claims that they are primarily concerned about innocents, or costs, when that is not really their true motivator. That is why they can't even endorse the singular, prompt execution of a mass-murderer.

Seems to really frustrate some, being exposed. Or maybe they are dealing with an internal conflict over their position.

I guess I was mysterious about my position, though. I support capital punishment. Hope that helps clarify matters for you, although I think most have picked up on this already.
Click to expand...

Heh, heh, heh, maybe in your dreams.
 
Last edited:
Warp12 said:
You see, here we are...exactly where I expected we would wind up. You mention the Gacy case as being an unfair example, but at the same time I don't hear you endorsing his execution.
Click to expand...
No, I don't endorse or excuse any execution. It's not necessary and serves no purpose. I think it would be just fine for a Gacy to rot in prison forever. Have you read about conditions in a Supermax? It's death on the installment plan.

Warp12 said:
The whole, "the system isn't perfect, so we should limit the punishment" argument is a pretty weak one. I mean look at your words above about "50 years in a cage, or more". So, you figure that is ok for an innocent? The goal of the system should be to properly convict, not to hedge your bets when you do.
Click to expand...

There's no point in debating ethics or morality with someone who thinks it's a fine thing for the state to kill people, but sometimes a practical argument -- and there are strong practical arguments against the death penalty -- will make a dent in open minds. Obviously not in your case.

The difference between an unjust execution and and unjust life sentence is that the defendant and his supporters can still try to prove his innocence while he's in prison and get him out. Not so if he's dead. And you don't seem to grasp that when a defendant is found guilty, the system is presumed to have convicted him "properly." Appeals are an uphill battle against the odds. And what kind of reforms do you imagine could prevent witnesses from being mistaken or lying; cops from lying, coercing suspects and concealing evidence; prosecutors lying to juries and concealing evidence; defense lawyers from being lazy or worse; and judges from exercising their prejudices? Be specific.

Warp12 said:
The link you gave doesn't touch me, at all. Most who are on death row will claim innocence. However, I have already mentioned (repeatedly) the idea of reform regarding the death penalty. Things such as further refining the cases in which it is called for, procedural review, etc...but, nobody seems to care about that. They seem to be entirely focused on abolition. And that, to me, is where it shows that it is more of an ethical matter. And that debate is endless.
Click to expand...

The links are not about people who claim innocence. They are about people who have been proven innocent by DNA or other new evidence. One of the practical arguments against the death penalty is that the system already provides extensive, expensive, lengthy, complex appeals processes that are not available in other cases, but they still always start with the premise that the defendant is deservedly guilty.

Warp12 said:
Let me ask you this, Bob. In the case you linked, what if we have the woman beating the child to death, on camera. She then looks at the camera, smiles, and says, "I killed this kid intentionally, and I planned it for weeks". Would that be adequate for you to endorse her execution?
Click to expand...

That's easy. Someone who would do that is clearly insane, and we don't execute, sometimes don't even prosecute, people who are insane. And you might have missed the fact that her lawyers were not allowed to introduce expert testimony about the tremendous abuse she had suffered as a child and its lifetime impact on her.

Here's a question for you: What does the death penalty accomplish? It doesn't deter anybody, because someone who commits a serious crime either expects to get away with it or doesn't consider the consequences. Does it protect the society? So does locking the defendant up for life. It's only purpose is vengeance. We need to be better than that, like most of the civilized world.
 
Cainkane1 said:
Can you imagine your twelve year old daughter being kidnapped out of her bedroom by a kinfe weilding drugged up stinking man, sexually molested and then strangled to death like Polly Klaus was?
Click to expand...

That's why we don't allow private vengeance. Criminals are prosecuted by the state on behalf of the community. If victims could assess punishments themselves, people would get executed over parking space disputes.

And since you particularly mention Polly Klaas (note correct spelling), her murderer Richard Allen Davis was sentenced to death on Aug. 5, 1996. He's still sitting on death row. If he had been sentenced to life without parole, his case would have been closed decades ago. Ideally someone with his long criminal history should have been put away long before he murdered a little girl.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Polly_Klaas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Allen_Davis
 
Thermal said:
Bin Laden was executed without trial. The State gave themselves power of summary execution (yeah, foreign soil and all but you get the point). Was that ok?
Click to expand...

If that is an execution the so was the guy on the couch shot by the cops. They were there to take him alive. He made that impossible. Not at all the same thing. Really, not even close to what we are talking about.

I think some extremities can be justified without going anywhere near The Line. Some criminals don't deserve the luxury of three hots and a cot for the balance of their days.
Click to expand...

Great. However you sketch those out who gets to decide? Shemp or the legal system? Or do we just put it on the next ballot.

And three hits and a cot is no luxury. I’m not even sure it is better than death.
 
Warp12 said:
It is funny that you mention intellectual honesty. Because, what I have done here is expose the intellectual dishonesty of a number of posters. You see, they hide behind their claims that they are primarily concerned about innocents, or costs, when that is not really their true motivator. That is why they can't even endorse the singular, prompt execution of a mass-murderer.

Seems to really frustrate some, being exposed. Or maybe they are dealing with an internal conflict over their position.

I guess I was mysterious about my position, though. I support capital punishment. Hope that helps clarify matters for you, although I think most have picked up on this already.
Click to expand...

You still haven’t laid out why death is more punishment than life in prison. Start at the beginning and maybe you can make half the ground you think you’ve made.
 
Dr. Keith said:
They were there to take him alive. He made that impossible. Not at all the same thing. Really, not even close to what we are talking about.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised that you believe this. But that is a whole thread in itself...
 
Last edited:
AmyStrange said:
I don't know about getting closure from watching someone get executed, but I believe knowing what happened to a loved one (in Gary Ridgway's case) is better than never knowing.

Personally, rather than execute him (like I stated in a later post), I'd rather have him shackled naked to a wall with the loved ones of his victims being able to whack him in the nuts with a lead pipe, and maybe that might make them feel better, but that's just me.

Your mileage may differ from mine.

ETA:
Click to expand...


Thanks for the link Amy. I found the following of interest:

In a number of cases, co-victims actually expressed sympathy for family members of the condemned, often empathizing with the experience of loss. “My heart really goes out to his family. I lost my daughter, and I know today is a terrible day for them as well,” stated one co-victim.

A death sentence can polarize the two families, obstructing healing for both. Prison chaplain Caroll Pickett has witnessed how capital punishment inflicts trauma on loved ones of both the condemned and the victim, as well as prison employees and others in the judicial process, stating in his autobiography, “All the death penalty does is create another set of victims.”

Of course, findings like these beg the question, are other forms of punishment more conducive to healing? A 2012 Marquette University Law School study showed improved physical and psychological health for co-victims, as well as greater satisfaction with the justice system, when life sentences were given, rather than capital punishment. The authors hypothesize that survivors “may prefer the finality of a life sentence and the obscurity into which the defendant will quickly fall, to the continued uncertainty and publicity of the death penalty.”
Click to expand...

The whole article casts doubt on whether the death of the perp gives any comfort to victims families.
 
Bob001 said:
And since you particularly mention Polly Klaas (note correct spelling), her murderer Richard Allen Davis was sentenced to death on Aug. 5, 1996. He's still sitting on death row. If he had been sentenced to life without parole, his case would have been closed decades ago. Ideally someone with his long criminal history should have been put away long before he murdered a little girl.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Polly_Klaas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Allen_Davis
Click to expand...

If he had been executed promptly, the case would have been closed, too. Without any further resource burden, nor a lifelong financial investment. But that can never happen, because of so many bleeding hearts. They need a victim to support, even if it is a child murderer.

Every time an animal like this is finally executed, you will see a few weirdo's outside protesting the result. I find those people sickening.

Speaking of animals...maybe when a dog mauls and kills a child, we should not euthanize them. After all, they are probably less culpable than a guy who has 33 bodies buried under his house. We can all protest the event while shouting, "Justice for Fido!". Then we can house, feed, and provide medical care for the dog until it expires of natural causes.
 
Last edited:
Cainkane1 said:
Can you imagine your twelve year old daughter being kidnapped out of her bedroom by a kinfe weilding drugged up stinking man, sexually molested and then strangled to death like Polly Klaus was?
Click to expand...

Can you imagine that happening to someone else daughter then having you own son executed in place of the real killer?
 
The story of the wrongfully convicted is sad enough on it's own but with the death penalty there is no chance of reversing that conviction, but all investigations end so there is no chance of ever bringing the real killer to justice.


 
lomiller said:
The story of the wrongfully convicted is sad enough on it's own but with the death penalty there is no chance of reversing that conviction, but all investigations end so there is no chance of ever bringing the real killer to justice.


Click to expand...

DNA evidence has come along quite a bit since 1969, believe it or not.

Also, I don't see how this applies to a case where someone has 33 bodies buried under their house.
 
lomiller said:
The story of the wrongfully convicted is sad enough on it's own but with the death penalty there is no chance of reversing that conviction, but all investigations end so there is no chance of ever bringing the real killer to justice.


Click to expand...

It doesn't matter to those who want to kill them off now, rather than let the process do its job.

They never explain exactly why they want to do this, or how it would be decided exactly, because to answer such question would prove to everyone how ridiculous their answers are and also how stupid they are.

They'd rather pretend they just owned the libs, and that's pathetic really.

ETA: giving out one or two names doesn't help or explain how this would be fair in real life. Nope, they'd rather knee jerk and not answer the REAL questions about why they want someone killed because they maybe/probably want to secretly kill people themselves--just for the fun of it and watching people (or animals) die is almost the same damn thing to them.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom