Death Penalty

[llwyd]

Gacy was deranged, insane - he shouldn't even have been put to prison but to a mental hospital for the rest of his life. He and other serial killers aren't "evil" but defective, sick.

A longer rant of mine on this subject: https://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2021/02/fatal-inversions.html

 

[rjh01]

Yeah, it was a little tongue in cheek, but is not as if these stats are one off.

States with the death penalty consistently have higher rates of murder than those without over an almost 30 year period.... its irrefutable, the facts don't lie.

Its not a case of a small sample v a large sample either - 25 to 32 states had the death penalty over the period in question, 16 to 23 states didn't and two have the DP but had a moratorium that covers all or part of period in question (Oregon since 2011 & Pennsylvania since 2015) so their stats are included in the non-DP states as applicable.

Finally all those stats are on a year-by-year basis. Any state that abolished the DP during the period 1990 to 2019 was swapped in the stats to a non-DP state the following years.

Do these states have the death penalty due to their high murder rate? What happened to the murder rate after the death penalty was brought in or abolished?

Before a person can draw any conclusions about those stats the above questions must be answered.

 

[The Atheist]

2. If someone is executed somebody has to do it. I wonder about the physiological effect this has the one doing the killing, and what kind of person would be drawn to this occupation.

Do you mean psychological effect?

Bit obscure in analogy terms but I know animal shelters have difficulty in getting people to stay in the job of executing stray dogs and cats. If people struggle to kill animals, I imagine killing people must have more of an impact on the psyche.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Do you mean psychological effect?

Bit obscure in analogy terms but I know animal shelters have difficulty in getting people to stay in the job of executing stray dogs and cats. If people struggle to kill animals, I imagine killing people must have more of an impact on the psyche.

And the sort of people who do NOT struggle to kill people would probably not be the sort of people you would want in any civilised society.

 

[Dave Rogers]

It seems like you are still squirming around the question. Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you? Simple yes or no.

Taking a more UK-centric approach, never once did I regret the fact that Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were imprisoned with no hope of freedom, or of living any kind of meaningful life whatsoever, and suffered every day until they died of natural causes. Execution would have been an easy way out for them.

It's interesting that you're choosing murderers as your example. I suspect you're arguing this because you feel that those you're talking to would regard killing another person as the ultimate moral wrong, so if we're to execute anybody it would be murderers. But this is a self-defeating argument; if killing is the greatest moral wrong, how is it morally corrective to kill another person? So the moral argument is nonexistent. Clearly, from a point of view of rehabilitation, execution is indefensible, because it starts from the presumption that some people can never be rehabilitated. From a point of view of defending society from criminals, it's defensible, because it ought to be cheaper to execute a criminal than incarcerate one for life (though, given the level of safeguards that need to be built into the system, in practice I suspect it isn't); but why stop at murderers? Society is equally protected by executing serial fraudsters, or serial shoplifters, or any criminal who has shown no sign of reforming. The answer is that it's morally indefensible to execute people for such lesser crimes. And from a point of view of punishment, see above.

So, no, the execution of Gacy is not an acceptable outcome for me.

Now, can you explain why not executing Gacy is not an acceptable outcome?

Dave

 

[Darat]

...snip..

3. So what's more ultimate?

Death is not a punishment - there must be a person alive to be punished, it's why I said earlier it seems a contradiction for those who support the death penalty as a punishment.

 

[Darat]

1.Why is life sacred? This sounds religious to me. I have no place for religion.

...snip...

That's just a hangover of the origins of words, today the term "sacred" can be taken to mean something like "primary" and so on.

All our moral codes and ethics arise from opinions not facts.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

saving money

From a point of view of defending society from criminals, it's defensible, because it ought to be cheaper to execute a criminal than incarcerate one for life (though, given the level of safeguards that need to be built into the system, in practice I suspect it isn't); but why stop at murderers?

"Many people assume that the state saves money by employing the death penalty since an executed person no longer requires confinement, health care, and related expenses. But in the modern application of capital punishment, that assumption has been proven wrong."link1. See also link2 and link3.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

misfocused question

It seems like you are still squirming around the question. Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you? Simple yes or no.

I'm not squirming; I am saying plainly that this is an unhelpful question.

 

[casebro]

Compare to killing enemy soldiers in wars? How sacred are soldiers lifes?

 

[The Don]

Compare to killing enemy soldiers in wars? How sacred are soldiers lifes?

Depends on time and location.

Right now, the lives of soldiers from developed countries seem to be comparatively sacred so that death tolls that would have been considered quite light two or three generations ago are unacceptable.

Then again, tens or hundreds of thousands are killed in various civil wars around the world and hardly anyone blinks.

 

[TofuFighter]

Compare to killing enemy soldiers in wars? How sacred are soldiers lifes?

Since you haven't posted this in response to any post in the thread specifically, I can understand why you would ask, but it's not really on topic, since deaths in war are not a result of punitive actions.
If you're directing this comment at the exchange about the sacredness or otherwise of life, also probably off topic, but I don't have an answer to it.

(under correction, i'll just say that the correct grammar is: soldiers' lives)

 

[The Atheist]

And the sort of people who do NOT struggle to kill people would probably not be the sort of people you would want in any civilised society.

Based on what?

The world's best-known executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, wasn't a bad man and ran a nice pub by all accounts, despite stringing up ~500 people, including the 22-year-old Irma Grese.

Charles-Henri Sanson executed 2931 people, including both Louis XVI and Robespierre, yet was actually a fairly caring bloke who was responsible for the entirely painless guillotine to be used for executions. He appears to have been another relatively average bloke, making a living to feed his family while not being a raging psychopath.

I suspect people who execute people as a way of making a living approach the job much as George Orwell did the caning boys while a master at Eton - whether or not you agree with it, you do it properly, because that's your job.

 

[Thor 2]

Do you mean psychological effect?

Bit obscure in analogy terms but I know animal shelters have difficulty in getting people to stay in the job of executing stray dogs and cats. If people struggle to kill animals, I imagine killing people must have more of an impact on the psyche.

Dead right!.... I did mean psychological.

Interesting to hear that animal shelters have that problem.

 

[Thor 2]

Death is not a punishment - there must be a person alive to be punished, it's why I said earlier it seems a contradiction for those who support the death penalty as a punishment.

I would imagine the punishment of knowing you were going to be killed would be extreme. When the waiting goes on for years and years....

 

[Thor 2]

1.Why is life sacred? This sounds religious to me. I have no place for religion.

2. I'm concerned about the practice. I do not condone capital punishment.
No one is forced to be an executioner. Let the persons who choose to do it deal with it. I am not concerned about them on a caring level.

3. It would depend on the person being punished. Death is usually an easy way out.

1. Sounds a bit scatty to me.

2. So you are not concerned about people being turned into professional killers?...... OK

3. How you can say this with such authority is beyond me.

 

[Warp12]

I'm not squirming; I am saying plainly that this is an unhelpful question.

Maybe it isn't helpful to you, or your position. That is about the only justification for your avoidance, as I see it.

It is a pretty simple question, and several others had no issue with providing an answer. My final attempt: Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you?

 

[Dr. Keith]

It seems like you are still squirming around the question. Is the execution of Gacy an acceptable outcome, for you? Simple yes or no.

I would have preferred that he receive treatment. Maybe before he started murdering, while we are in the land of hypotheticals.

Acknowledging that health care, much less mental health services, are not something we are discussing, I’d rather he died in jail. Watching the world move past him. Without any hope of having an impact or being a part of the world.

Are you afraid that we don’t have good enough jails to accomplish that?

Why must we spend all the extra money to kill him when it would have been far cheaper to cage him? You’d think conservatives would hate the death penalty. Read the New Testament and think about your own wallet, just this one time.

 

[Warp12]

I’d rather he died in jail. Watching the world move past him. Without any hope of having an impact or being a part of the world.

Are you afraid that we don’t have good enough jails to accomplish that?

Why must we spend all the extra money to kill him when it would have been far cheaper to cage him? You’d think conservatives would hate the death penalty. Read the New Testament and think about your own wallet, just this one time.

Based on the evidence accumulated in Gacy's case, I don't see any need for overwhelming expense or delay in his execution. He was on death row for 14 years, ridiculously. But that is a different can of worms.

So, you would rather see him rot in jail, as that amounts to a greater punishment, in your mind?

Why would I read the New Testament?

 

[Olmstead]

Based on the evidence accumulated in Gacy's case, I don't see any need for overwhelming expense or delay in his execution. He was on death row for 14 years, ridiculously. But that is a different can of worms.

So, you would rather see him rot in jail, as that amounts to a greater punishment, in your mind?

Why would I read the New Testament?

A bigger can of worms than sending someone straight to the guillotine because they're "obviously" guilty and "obviously" deserve it? The expensive safeguards exist for a reason.